doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Forcing cones in old doubles

However, there was a comment (in that book)that when patterning the 28, the pushpins jumped out of the board, suggesting that more of the shot arrived at the same time, than some other gauges. I don't think any explanation was offered but it certainly suggests a shorter shot string, to me.

I don't really recall his exact words, haven't looked at the book since first acquiring it some years back. I do remember for certain he strongly implied the 28 just had those "Magical" properties which un-explainably allowed it to shoot far out of proportion to its size. Not really worth the trouble to look up anyway.

Gentlemen, if you're going to pick on a poor, dead writer who isn't around to defend himself, it's always a good idea to go to the source. (Personally, I'm planning on coming back from the dead if I hear someone misquoting something I wrote!) If you read Brister's chapter "The Case for the Small Gauge", he does indeed talk about the 28's short shot string . . . but mostly in comparison to the 3" .410's very long shot string. He does say that the 28 gauge is somewhat of an exception in that it "simply kills better than it is supposed to". But he does present some evidence for that claim, in terms of skeet averages at that time--which ran only 1% different for Class B shooters, from the 20 to the 28. But he doesn't really credit any magical properties to the 28, pointing out that even in shoots like a "quail walk", where one might think a smallbore would not be a disadvantage, he--and other shooters who won or placed--did so with 12's.

His bottom line on the 28ga: "Apparently the 28 standard load and the 12-gauge pigeon load are both balanced loads in terms of the length and weight of shot column relative to bore diameter and other factors." No claims about a "square load".

If you read Brister objectively, you'll find that he was really surprised--having done pretty well himself, shooting doves and quail with a .410--that 28 gauge patterns on both still and moving pattern boards were that much better.

First; I made no claim that Brister ever so much as mentioned the Sq Load theory. The statement I made on that was in a post in which Brister's name was not mentioned. I did not state who made it, I think I recall the writers name, but did not state it because I didn't want to name the wrong person with so foolish a statement. It definitely was "NOT" Brister, of that I am certain. The Mag was Peterson's Shotgunning or something similar, I only bought the one.

2nd; You Larry are the one who brought Brister's name into the thread, If you just can't stand for his work to be discussed both Pro & Con then don't bring his name into it at all.

As to the above quote I do not recall for certain if this is a direct quote from Brister or a Mis-Quote, so not certain wheather its you or Brister who was/is wrong. The 28ga was never loaded with the shot column "Length & Weight" proportional to the bore as it relates to the 12ga Pigeon load. This is a very simple mathamatical equation, but the problem is Larry, you just never seem to stop & figure out what you are saying.
Shot loads which are proportional in "length & weight" to bore dia are proportional to the "Cube" of their dia. Coinsidering the "Pigeon load in the 12ga as 1�oz then a 28 ga load having the same length to bore ratio would weigh .54oz. Note the standard 28ga skeet load is .75oz. A 12ga load having a length to bore ratio equivelent to this 3/4 oz load would carry 1 3/4oz. Now anyone would call this a Magnum load, yet it is considered the Light load in the 28.
Mostly the different gauges were loaded having a shot column very similar in actual length, not proportional to their bore (the .410 which is not a gauge, doesn't even fit in here). In this case the load is proportional to the Squaare of their dia's. Thus using the 1�oz pigeon load in 12ga as the base we find the following loads having about the same column length (rounded to nearest 1/16oz;
10ga ---- 1 7/16oz
12ga ---- 1�oz
16ga ---- 1oz
20ga ---- 7/8oz
28ga ---- 11/16oz
.410 ---- 3/8oz
Note that both the 28 & 16ga are very near the midpoint in which case they would have rounded up to the next step IE 3/4oz & 1 1/16oz respectfully. 10 & 20ga's are extremely close to listed wt.
Note further these loads are proportional in "weight" to their bore dias, but not in column length, the smaller bores having longer columns proportionate to their bore.

The "Surprizing" thing to me is that one with Brister's experience was surprised when the 28 shot more like a 20ga than a .410. Even an old hillbilly like me who certainly feels no qualifications to write a book on the subject would have expected that from the Git-Go.
It may take me a few days to get a O-tuit but guess I will just have to dig up his book to make certain I have am mis-quoting him. I have made no attempt for an exact word for word quote, but simply outlined the gist of what he said. You seem to want to make a big deal if I use a different word than he did even though the meaning is essentially the same.

His bottom line on the 28ga: "Apparently the 28 standard load and the 12-gauge pigeon load are both balanced loads in terms of the length and weight of shot column relative to bore diameter and other factors."

And what does "balanced load" mean?

Rocketman,

Your question is a loaded one, open for interpretation;-) Hahaha!
I could say 1oz. in a 16ga., but what does that really mean?!!

In Brister's case, I think it meant that he shot good scores or bags with them [3/4oz in 28ga. & 1&1/4oz. flyer loads in 12ga.] and satisfied his own curiosity about their performance, on paper. He was, in fact, incessently curious. I say that not as any refute to anything; rather in recognition that he was a very fine shot and perhaps the best shooting and most all 'round inquisitive sporting writer here of his time. I shot with/against him a number of times at a long defunct place known as Hawkeye in the Piney Woods near the Louisiana border years ago. He did a lot of interesting things in his day; aside from hanging with some of the best shots and constantly experimenting, he introduced collum bare & Sporting Clays shooting to the US. Several of the people who attended that first hand thrown shoot are still with us. I was not one of them. Brister won it.

As an aside, he was a really fun & funny person to be around & really good outdoor newspaper sports writing died w/him down here as far as I'm concerned.

Note: 1&1/4oz. was the std. pigeon load ... for the 10ga.!!!! back when.

Indeed, Miller, I first mentioned his name. And you first mentioned his claim about the 28's short shot string . . . so I went back, looked, and discovered that those comments were almost entirely in contrast to the 3" .410's long shot string. Certainly no statement that the standard 28ga load has a shorter shot string than, say, a 7/8 oz 20ga or a 1 oz 12ga. Other than in his chapter on string (with the famous moving target tests), his comments on the 28 are mostly in his chapter on small gauges.

As for the quote you quoted . . . yes, it is a direct quote. That's why I put quotation marks around it. I don't normally put them around things I say, because people kinda know I'm saying it if I write it. And it's not what I'M saying . . . it's what Brister said. And Don and Miller, I have to "assume" here, since Brister did not add further explanation to his "balanced load" quote (and I purely hate to assume!), but I don't think he's talking balanced mathematically, as you are. He's speaking in terms of the results those loads produce, as evidenced by their patterns.

To add to what tw wrote, I'd point out that it's pretty well-known that Brister lived in a very nice house, purchased with his winnings shooting live pigeons. Thus, he had pretty good credentials as both an experimenter and a practitioner with the shotgun.

This has been a very interesting thread...I dont know what I learned, if anything. It seems this discussion has been going on since Dan Lefever invented the shotgun. I remember my Dad having a fit when plastic wads first came into common usage. "Damn, If it wasnt for blown patterns and flyers, I wouldnt hit anything" As to the magical powers of the 28, I think they best remain that way. I have made shots, clean kills with the 28 that are remarkable. Why? Dunno...Still killing lots of roosters here, shooting a 10 bore this week...Re: Square loads? Lets build a square barrel, gun with square cartidges...Think of the sighting plane!

I may have read more into the actual comments, found at the top of page 70, of Bob's book, than he intended. I'm just happy to find that my memory is still pretty good, even though not much else works well. I also love the 28, having owned about a half dozen of them. Only have one left now. It's a Browning Citori Gran Lightning. It shoots skeet far better than I typically shoot and is a joy to look at and shoot. A standard Grade I Citori with Grade III wood, 28" barrels and choke tubes.