doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Fixed chokes were made to open?

There was David J. Moses who used to work in German journal Visier, later he moved to US.
As I remember he told about F/F chokes in most German guns as customer' possibility to open chokes later, when customer would figure out what he wanted.

As one who actually worked in building new guns in the 60s &70's ,it was common practice for shops to order guns ,[both with the name of the maker or their own name on], with heavy or full choke and the stocks left long,the butt end unfinished. When sold the gun could be altered to the customers requirements.
This raises the question of "originality" . Is it the makers records or the end users wants ,the length and choke he buys the gun with ,to be considered original?

I don't care how unpopular my opinion guns are meant to use and if you don't want to mess with spreaders open them up if it so inclines you. I will not mess with original guns but if they've been altered as so many have, I make them suit my needs. This is why I tend to be a bottom feeder, and buy guns with small issues, I like to tinker and or restore. In the process I may open the chokes to make the gun work better for me. I leave the pristine original guns to guys who like closet queens.

Hey Destry, I am also a collector of A-5's and you'd be suprised how many have open chokes (original) true a lot of 12 ga guns are tight choked but the 16's and 20's have open chokes quite often. Finding an open choked model 12 on the other hand is tougher I will agree.

In a Lefever catlog the statement was made that any choke combination could be ordered at no extra cost, but unless otherwise ordered their guns would be shipped full in both bbls. I highly suspect at this point in time as the bbls were being made most were bored full. When orders came in for lesser chokes, with the taper choke style used it was a simple matter to simply run a reamer back in to a greater depth. I seriously doubt they anticipated very many of them being altered after they left.

If, in the States, we take the period of time after prairie chickens had been seriously reduced in numbers and sharptail grouse quite significantly so, but before the introduction of the pheasant had really taken hold, that pretty much coincides with the period when most of the "classic" American doubles were built and sold. That would be roughly around 1890-1930. During those years, "shooting flying" would have meant ruffed grouse/woodcock or quail in the uplands--thus, New England and the old South (grouse really didn't come on in the Upper Midwest until after most of the old growth timber had been cut, and northern MN/WI/MI/UP were still pretty remote then as well) or else it would have meant waterfowl. And of course, F/F was just the ticket for waterfowl. And the "hardware store" doubles would have been nearly all tight choked because those who bought them weren't doing all that much "shooting flying". Pot a grouse out of a tree, but also shoot the fox that's getting into the chicken coop, or a coon, or whatever else. A general purpose tool rather than a hunting gun as such. Add to that the fact that far fewer people back then had the time for recreational hunting. It was put something in the pot, and a squirrel or a rabbit was a better bet in comparison to a flying grouse. So, with a large segment of the country not really having much in the way of upland birds, and not a lot of recreational hunting anyhow, and more doubles sold as tools than as recreational arms (and that would have extended even to the field grade Elsies and Ithacas, and Fox SW's--those for perhaps the slightly wealthier and/or more discriminating buyer), it's easy to see why there were so many old American doubles choked F/F. And why there were way more 12's sold than anything else. (About 108,000 12ga Fox SW's, compared to 45,000 16's and 20's combined.)

This is the shotgun in question.
I do not think this Merkel was made for the proffesional meat market hunter.
The lenght of the barrels are 68 cm exactly (about 26 3/4")
Why the full/full chokes?









I really apreciate all your comments regard the "chokes" and the probably reasons they are so tight.

Best,

Beautiful shotgun- Greener style side safety and fine checking on the straight hand stoack and forearm- instead of the oft-seen carving of leapings Valkeries and ruptured Elk--I recall the late Capn. Paul A. Curtis's words about chokes, gauges and market gunners- written in 1934- "Go buy one like mine Cap'n- and have half the choke drilled outta her- ref to a Rem M11- also Curtis mentioned the older heavy 10 bores- and if the gunner was asked how his gun was choked- he'd say "Full and Fuller" when truth be known, it was more likely Mod and Imp Mod-- Also, as I apprenticed as a lad with my 20 gauge M12 (plugged) with an old time market hunter- who shot a 30" Full choke M97 Winchester Black Diamond Grade 12 bore- shooting birds "sittin' on the water" was a waste of shells, as well as unsportsman-like- they are way harder to kill in that mode, no matter the choke or the distance-- those men shot waterfowl for a living and were sparing of their shells, as they were a major cost of being in that business-they didn't "sky-bust" much either-

LC Smith, in their pre-1913 issued catalogs specified any choke was available at the customer's request- but the usual factory choking was Full in each barrel- back then their ads decribed the Full choke as "The Expert Gunner's Choice"--

I believe the reason why so man 12 gauge Winchester pumps are 30" full is the Depression era and basic frugality- If a M12 field gun sold for $39.95 (plus tax) in 1933- and you could get one with a 30" or 28" barrel- Hell's bells- you got more steel with the 30", so that's what you bought-

Jose, I'm guessing that gun was choked full/full simply because a lot of German guns were choked that way. The Germans tended to use their guns for fur as well as feather, and full makes a lot of sense for ground game.

Jose,

Full chokes were NOT made in shotguns for the current owner to open as he chooses. Opening any choke will lessen the value, sometimes considerable depending how rare and old the particular SxS. I have sold many collector SxSs and usually the first question my customers ask me of the shotgun is "have the chokes been opened?" If you don't like the chokes in your shotgun buy another shotgun with factory open chokes to your liking or try spreader loads. Most of us will not own any one shotgun until "death do us part", so don't devalue a collector for your temporary needs. One example was just listed on the "sale" page of this forum. Another collector Parker Reproduction bites the dust. Many of the people that visit this forum at one time or another, when buying a collector will or have rejected it because it's originality has been messed with. Leave what's left of the good unmolested guns alone. If anyone is fanatical about "chokes" buy a screw-in choke model SxS,O/U,pump or auto.

Amen and Amen to that- I would pass on any double with shortened barrels or thin muzzles or tool marks in the muzzle areas- no matter how good the "deal" ot the other features- as a famous gunner now gone once said- "A gun is to shoot"- if you are a grouse or quail hunter - get open chokes and use smaller size shot- if you are a serious waterfowler- get a 30" full for pass shooting (my first love) or mod. for birds over decoys-- I have two 12 gauge M12's- both 30" Full unaltered- that I use for waterfowls- one a std. Field grade 2.75" chambers mfg 1937- one a Heavy Duck 3" chambers made in 1949- I have shot Federal and Remington steel loads through them for 20 plus years- NO bulging, or any change in the barrel(s) and when I do my part right- the birds drop stone cold dead-

I would NOT open the chokes on that beautiful Merkel 12 bore- just shoot spreader loads- and enjoy the fine "Kraut Kraftsmanship"--