doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Help on a Greener, please.

If you really want to know the true chamber length, you have to do a visual with a machinist's scale and proper light. Another fairly accurate way is to actually take a micrometer reading of the entire chamber to the bore, an eighth of an inch at a time. A hard chamber gauge can easily give a 1/4 inch inaccurate reading in a slightly oversized factory chamber. Your chamber could be a perfectly correct 2 3/4" chamber when properly measured.

12 over C in a diamond means gauge at chamber , with chamber lengths 3" or less. 12 over LC in a diamond means the gun has LONGER than 3" chambers.

In my humble opinion the only acurate way of confirming a chamber depth is to use a plug gauge.Turned up to approved British proof size. Others have disagreed with me on this. I could not see to well on the photo ,but it would appear to be black powder only.What are the rest of the barrel dimentions.

I think he's more concerned if the chamber length is original.

That may well be right if you deal only with good quality British built guns. Throw in a good mix of both Continental & American ones & I can "Positively Assure" you it is not the case. Not all makers used absolute British specs for minimum chamber size. If I recall correctly British specs call for a minimum chamber dimension of .800" (12ga). Drawings for the American L C Smith for instance show a dimension of .798" (12ga). With a taper of .005" per inch in the chamber walls a.002" smaller chamber dimension than the plug will stop it more than 3/8" short, .400" to be exact. In this case the 6" flexible scale 8-Bore cited is much more accurate. In spite of the fact I have a nice set of gages I turned up myself to SAAMI spec size I encountered enough pre-SAAMI guns having chambers a thou or two undersize that I seldom use them anymopre, relying instead on that Starrett 6" scale.

I spot a disagreement here between Baron Engelhardt and Lee Kennett. Engelhardt says the LC mark applies to "10, 12, and 14 gauge having chambers of 3" or longer, and those of 16 to 32 gauge having chambers 2 3/4" and longer". Kennett says: "To distinguish shotguns using the longer shells, those with chamber lengths of 3" or more were to bear the nominal gauge in a lozenge, along with the letters LC, for long chamber." Usually they're in agreement, with the Kennett material simply updating Engelhardt through the 1955 rules of proof.

Based on the serial number and the "maximum" marking on the barrel flats, that gun probably dates from 1903-04.

Miller,I did say "to British proof size" were there is a maximum and minimum ,there is also a tolereance on the length. I can send them to you. You and I are not going to agree on this subject and I dont want to get into a protracted argument that is neither helpful or relevant to the original question. Homless joe says"He is more concerned with the chamber length than the proof status" , well it depends on what you want to shoot out of it and how much you value your fingers.

Looking at the proof marking and the suspected chamber length combined with living the good life in American it would appear that only Greener can tell us if the gun was originally 3" chambered.

Did anyone besides me notice the trade mark sheaf of wheat stamped on each tube just forward of the flats- those are Sir Joseph Whitworth steel barrels--in the same quality realm as German Krupp Flustahl and Swedish Bofors barrel steels-- Nice find-

Larry, I was quoting from Wirnsberger on the 12/C and 12/LC rules. I have a W. Betts pigeon gun with 12/C, three inch chambers, and proofed for 1 1/2 oz and marked 3" on each barrel flat. It was made in the 1920s, I think. One often sees British guns, especially Greeners, chambered for 2 1/2" shells and 1 1/4 oz of shot, but I don't think I have ever seen 2 1/2" chambers proofed for 1 1/2 oz. of shot in a British gun.

Englehardt seems to be wrong according to examples like above. Also have a Cashmore Nitro marked 12/C and and "3 inch cases". Have a Greener Monarch Imperial marked 16/C and "2 3/4" case". Both of these markings seem to contradict Englehardt as you quote him.