doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com anonymous Mantons

I have a couple of SxS percussion doubles, late 19th century muzzleloaders, twist barrels, full Birmingham proof marks, light engraving, both marked Manton. Not Joseph Manton or Manton and Co. or J Manton, just plain Manton. Can anyone explain what these guns are?

Bob

Almost certainley you have spurious guns!Illegal use of well known names on inferior quality guns was a serious problem for the legitimate English makers during the mid to late 1800,s.
Manton,Richards,Greenen[For Greener] are examples of the names found on guns of the very poorest quality imported into North America.
The H&D Folsom Arms Co; 312-314,Broadway,NewYork,N.Y.[1859-circa 1930] used the name Richards and Manton,on very low grade guns made in Belgium and In some cases Birmingham, the objective was to deceive customers and increase their sales,

I'd be interested in seeing the proofmarks, anyway.

Best,
Ted

Bob

A London, Liege version

Both pairs of barrels are marked with the Birmingham Black powder proof marks in use in part from 1813, modified in 1858, revised again in 1868 to form as seen on your barrels.The marks as seen remained in continuous use upto 1904. Barrels marked 13 were proof tested as 13,bore [.710 nominal diameter].Barrel set marked 14 was proof tested as a 14 bore [.693 nominal diameter].
The 14 bore barrels show an indistinct proof stamp that appears to be; A" Crown over an S",this may indicate that these barrels were subjected to a special test with exta heavy load but more likely they are a symbol to show that the barrels were serviceable.
The SJS seen on the barrels marked 13 could be the makers initials or those of the inspector at the proof house.

Thanks, Roy. Nothing new to me there except the possible implications of that indistinct crown over S stamp. So, legitimate Birmingham marks on a faux Manton. What does that mean? The guns aren't junk, they are solid and well built. The barrels passed English proof. Many people automatically categorize them as Belgian junk, but I can't see that. They don't look like junk to me, and I don't know what the basis for assuming they must be Belgian is. Even if that were so, I know not all Belgium-made barrels were junk. W. W. Greener said many of the best British gunmakers used Belgian barrels until 1875. I've seen quite a few guns of this type over the years, so I think it's safe to say someone was building them for import to the USA. I've always been puzzled what the real situation with this type of gun is.

Bob

I bought a J Manton last year, twist barrelled, top lever hammer gun. I was even more ignorant of the gun trade then than now. With vague memories of reading Col Hawker years ago, I thought I was buying a plain gun by a famous maker. Then somebody at the gun club told me about this site and I read about JABC's falsely labeled as J Manton and thought I had a fine example. Then I read about proofmarks and looked under the barrels, Birmingham proofs.
Just a week ago I bought a learner/project gun, a rusty, dented, loose, cracked etc. 16 ga top lever hammer gun with chain damascus barrels . Barrel and locks say Lovell Arms Co, Boston, Eureka Gun. Also Birmingham proofs. Clearly out of the same shop although better original grade and much worse present condition.
Looking on line for a replacement buttplate for the cracked one on the 16, I saw the same design, except flat and unspurred, assigned to J.P. Clabrough.
I would post pics, but my wife can't find where she stashed the cable to connect the new camera to the computer.

Here you go. 1891 ad for Lovell. The Eureka is listed for $35.00
At some point the company was sold to Iver Johnson who was a friend of John Lovell. The Lovell name disappears around 1904.



Pete

The "E over LG" mark gives it away that the barrels are Belgian produced in Liege. You are correct that not all Belgian made doubles are "junk". I have several that are quite well made and two also have Birmingham proofs. One of these was purchased by me in England and, therefore, never made it across the pond until now. I have a percussion double by August Francotte that I would place in quality alongside of any Birmingham double of the same period.

Best Regards, George