doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com inertia triggers--good, bad, and why??

Thank you! Any idea when this happened (in europe)?

By 1900, there were relatively robust systems in place. The 1890's saw a real burst of creativity and understanding. The Boss single trigger seems to have set the pace. I am under the impression that there are shooters for whom double triggers really are a detrement. Considering the social pressure that surrounded the upper end of shooting, some were willing to pay serious money to solve the single trigger issue. Boss got that job done. Others followed.

Personally, I rarely remember moving my finger from trigger to trigger - it just happens on auto-pilot. On the other hand, I don't suppose that because it works so for me means that it should be so for everyone.

The M-21 trigger is mechanical.However, the inertia weight that prevents doubling is sensitive to recoil.If it does not swing forward, doubling occurs.The Miller has the same problem,if the weight does not move to the rear. All of them are very critical as to the relationship of the parts. The older tang type guns especially so. However, a K or P gun can give fits. THe K being mechanical and the P usually inertia, but one of mine , used by the USA team in the L.A. Olympics, can be set mechanical(factory).

I've heard that "need to defeat the involuntary second pull" explanation before, but I don't believe it holds true with all mechanical triggers. In fact, I think it's only true with a relative few of them (I believe the Boss system being one example.)

Example: I put snap caps in my SST Parker Repro. I pull once, trigger goes click, hammer falls; I pull a second time, trigger goes click again, second hammer falls. I know both hammers have tripped, because when I open the gun, both snap caps eject. How come I can get both hammers to drop with two voluntary pulls, if the system is supposedly designed to defeat an involuntary second pull? How would the gun know if my second pull is voluntary or involuntary? The Boss, as I understand it--don't believe I've ever dry fired a ST Boss--does indeed require 3 pulls to dry fire both barrels.

And while all 3 types of triggers have their devotees, one would do well to know the advantages and disadvantages of each. For example, if I'm only shooting targets, I won't worry much about the fact that some light loads might not reset an interia trigger. I'll find that out, and I simply won't use loads that don't reset the trigger. Likewise, not getting the gun mounted solidly probably isn't a big deal either. However, if I'm hunting, the mount can be an issue. Likewise, if I fire the first barrel with an interia trigger, break the gun open to reload, and a second bird flushes before I've reloaded the first barrel, I'm not going to get a shot off. I might get one off with a mechanical trigger, if I remember that I have to pull it twice. And if I'm used to double triggers, I can get a shot off if I remember to pull the back trigger. Advantages and disadvantages are different in the field (and perhaps more important, because you can always ask for another target--hard to just ask for another live bird to flush!) than on the target range.

Larry: The involuntary second pull is pretty well established fact for all STs (see Burrard, Churchill, Gough Thomas et al.). The second pull occurs a microsecond after the first, as the gunner's reflex follows the recoiling trigger. Most modern STs incorporate a slight delay between barrels, during which the involuntary pull occurs. Boss is one of the few that actually use a three-pull system. Burrard's The Modern Shotgun, Volume I addresses this issue in depth.

If DTs are generally better, why is it that the most popular doubles around the world today, O/Us, are almost all STs?

Jack, DT's are only "better" in the sense that they're more reliable--in addition to the fact that they allow instant selection of barrel (and therefore choke). But they're also "old fashioned". OU's only became popular after WWII, by which time many shooters had "grown up" with ST's, on either pumps or autos, because sxs (and therefore DT's) had started to fade in popularity. Also, the ST's on doubles had evolved quite a bit, and were less problematic by that time. As a result, you'll find fewer OU's with cranky ST's than sxs. The Brits had some real problems with ST sxs, and so did the Spanish (because they copied the Brits). Those problems are mostly solved these days, but a lot of doublegun fanciers will still avoid a Brit or Spanish ST gun. And interestingly enough, you very rarely see a new Spanish double with a ST. In fact, I think you have to special order to get one from AyA, Arrieta, Grulla, etc.

But just because something is more "popular" doesn't mean it's "better" (in the sense of being more reliable). For example, cars with automatic transmissions are far more popular in this country than stick shifts. Are they more reliable? Which is more expensive to repair if something goes wrong? And did you ever try to start an automatic by popping the clutch?

I currently have a NID 4E with a single selective trigger (Miller) that occasionally doubles in the sense of firing the second barrel a split second after the first - ba-boom. It is not a double discharge in the sense of both shells firing at the same time. The gun weighs near 9# as I shoot it with a Galco pad and spacer. The offending occasion, to date, is use of 7/8 oz loads at 1100 fps. These are most likely to light in this gun to move the inertia block fully into position. The consequence is that the second, involuntary, pull ignites the second barrel; it will do it with the selector in either position. There doesn't seem to be any particular hazard to me or the gun (we are both robust to the event), but it does seem to startle the gallery. However, in a lighter gun with loads closer to the gun's power limit, this would be a problem to be dealt with forewith. The solution, in this case, is shoot more powerful shells, dink with the works, or send it to Doug Turnbull for tuning to the light load.

Larry: You neglected to mention that DTs are also a PITA in cold weather hunting, and can raise issues about front-trigger bruising, middle-finger bruising, hand movement, trigger alignment, etc. - all of which have been discussed on this BB. Major Burrard addressed the first issue after a lifetime of shooting DTs:

When the grouse woods go bare and white and the wind chill gets razor sharp, Larry, my DT stays at home.

As for the current fad for DTs on modern SxSs, I suspect it is somewhat driven by "tradition" as hyped by the Angloid set. If DTs work for you and the hunting you do, by all means use them.

But calling DTs "correct" implies that STs are "incorrect" - and that is the kind of "my choice is better than your choice" cr@p that has ruined so many BBs. Rocketman said it all:

My Pop, a man who could easily be mistaken for Popeye the sailor man, purchased a new Beretta Silver Snipe, circa 1964 or so. Per usual, the gun was stocked for a nice, short, fat European man, and was still too long for Dad. He shortened up the stock and had a Pachmayer recoil pad put on. Thus began a 40 year era of sometimes single shot operation of what had been a perfectly functioning single inertia trigger.
Well, Dad discovered goose hunting and bigger guns, and the Beretta mostly sat. A few years past, Dad started carrying the old girl for a bit of upland with me, as it is lighter than any of the other shotguns in his arsenal. I did strip and clean it, and refinish the stock, but, I noticed the pad had become quite hard, over time. Bingo. The gun is back to perfect funtion. My Dad has never weighed more than 135 lbs, and while the gun can certainly "rock him back in his shoes", so to speak, I don't know if that is a factor here. It seems to work well with any and all loads today.

I have noticed, over the years, that the guys who prefer single triggers seem to be folks that never really got the hang of a double trigger gun. I haven't met someone who can honestly say, they can successfully use a double trigger gun, but prefer a single trigger. A single trigger has always seemed, to me, like eyeglasses or a hearing aid-it gave someone who was hamstrung, so to speak, the opportunity to use a double, when they otherwise wouldn't have been able to. I know the guys who make the argument that the single lets their gloved hand in the guard when it is cold out, but, they still use the single trigger gun when it is 75 and sunny early in the season. Whatever. But, be honest about it.

I remember it took me about 1 season to learn to use a two trigger system, as a young man. I wanted to learn how to use it, which I think makes a huge difference in how well you learn how to shoot a double trigger gun. I suppose I could use a single trigger gun, today, if I had to, as the Red Green guys say, but, fortunately, I don't.

So, those guns, are for you guys. You know who you are.
Best,
Ted

Well, Ted, maybe we should meet. I use a 12ga. DT gun regularly - and with moderate success - for early season wild pheasant and for skeet. For grouse, preserve pheasant and also for skeet, I prefer a 20ga. ST. In the uplands, I seldom find the DT's 'quick choice of choke' useful. If I had to go with only one system, I'd go with the inertia ST.

For another who honestly preferred a ST after a lifetime of shooting DTs, see my quote from Burrard, above.

Incidentally, why do some folks feel a need to beat the drums about DTs in a thread about inertia triggers? Or dump on ST users as "hamstrung" and unable to learn to use DTs? Can't you guys accept the fact that your preference is only one of several equally valid choices?