doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Win 21 Grand Royal

Galazan's license to build Winchester M-21s undoubtedly specifies build requirements for the M-21s sold under the Winchester name. Considering the quality of the CSMC guns, the current licensor may have no problem with Galazan's stamping guns as Winchester that are built the same as CSMC M-21s -- as long as sold at the grade and price apparently required by the license agreement.

I think it's likely this garish Grand Royal was built by Galazan's as an "authentic" Winchester M-21, as authorized by the license agreement that according to their website is still valid.

Buzz, the WP proof mark has nothing to do with Winchester Proof Steel.

As I said, I think they can or could in the beginning. I believe they have/had an agreement with Olin as to how that could be done if a customer wanted one with the Winchester name. However, the cost was very much higher.

Instead of all the speculation I would suggest that someone contact the Olin Licensing dept. They will give the answer to whether or not anyone other than Winchester Arms has the right to put the Winchester trademark or the Winchester proof mark on a gun.

Welcome Pauline!! Great to have you here!!

For years Galazan's has prominently advertised that they build both the Winchester M-21 and the CSMC M-21. No one has offered any reason not to take this at face value. If you ask them to build you a M-21 Grand American with authentic Winchester stamping, I've no doubt they'll be happy to do it.

Jay

FYI

From Vicki Boeker
Manager, Licensed Products
Winchester


CSMC does not have a license to manufacture new Model 21 shotguns with the Winchester name.
If they wanted to do so, CSMC would have to sub from Browning which does have a license from Olin.
I have corresponded with Vicki previously on other Winchester licensing issues.

I do have a CSMC Model 21 and its as good or better than any Winchester branded Model 21 I have or have ever owned so at this point I really think the question is academic but I did speak to Vicki on the issue.-Dick

Thanks for investigating this Dick.

I looked at Galazan's website again, and found that they've removed the Winchester M-21 from the list of guns they make, where it appeared on a website page I copied/pasted from above. However, it still appears as follows on another of their website pages.

Jay

"Connecticut Shotgun manufactures the A. Galazan full sidelock over & under shotgun, the A.H. Fox shotgun, the Winchester Model 21 and the Connecticut Shotgun Model 21 ...."

From what I understand from the Olin licensing department, CSMC has never had a license to produce the Model 21 with Winchester trademark, including when U.S. Repeating Arms was involved and going under. Therefore, I think it is highly unlikely the 'over the top' Grand Royal, which CSMC said was a Winchester gun, and for which they had some sort of paper work which appeared to be from the Cody archives, is in reality a real Winchester made gun, but rather a reproduction. I personally believe there are many Winchester Model 21's out there which are not real Winchesters and don't letter from Cody. Likewise, I think there are a few Winchester stamped guns out there which do letter and are in fact reproductions, just like the 'over the top' Grand Royal. I have heard it said by reputable gunsmiths and even people on this forum that the Galazan produced Model 21's are better than the original. Ken Eversull, for example, told me they are better made in terms of metal to metal fit and he also told me why: Galazan is producing Model 21's with CNC machines which Winchester didn't use when producing their Winchester Model 21, and therefore tolerances are much more precise. Well is the new Model 21 produced by Galazan really better? It's not hand made. Is the steel used up to the standard of Winchester Proof Steel? How would one know; do they put these guns through rigorous proof and violent proof testing like Winchester did? Also, what about the future in terms of collector values? Are all these fake Winchester Model 21's going to depreciate the values of the real ones? Are the Galazan Model 21's going to hold their value and be collector items? I guess only time will tell. For me, however, I am only going to purchase and collect the real McCoy....that is if I don't get fooled.

It depends on the serial number as to if the gun is a Winchester or not. If the number is 38000 or more it is not. If its anything less, it started out as a Winchester but was reworked by CSMC. It never came from Winchester with that outlandish engraving.