doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Win 21 Grand Royal

I don't know about fradulently roll marked M21s but I can assure you that there are many, many phony upgrades out there, some even with fake papers. Who put these guns together? Who knows. I agree if you are going to spend that kind of money on anything you should do your homework first.

In my opinion, a product not made by its original maker is not "authentic". A replica, yes, but "authentic", no.

I am not referring to quality, fit, steel used or anything else. If not made by the original maker it cannot be "authentic".

JC

I would like to see what would happen if the all the contributors to this post were picked for jury duty. I wager it would be a very interesting day in court!!

Buzz, the judge would just give up and let the defendant go, then yell, "You people will never be in my courtroom ever again"

While making room for recent issues and deciding what to keep and discard, I ran across the following from an article by Vic Venters in the Jan.-Feb. 2003 issue of Shooting Sportsman. Venters interviewed Tony Galazan about the "new" CSMC M-21 introduced in 2002, and toured CSMC to observe its manufacture. The quoted info below follows a brief history of Galazan's/CSMC.

"The Fox gun debuted in 1994, about the same time the ambitious Galazan was negotiating with USRAC to buy the Winchester Custom Shop -- lock, stock and barrel. The deal went through in 1996, with Galazan purchasing all parts and inventory along with the right to make a limited number of high-grade guns and to perform repairs. And with that, the Winchester Model 21 was reborn, albeit quietly and only in the highest grades. Also, due to the vagaries of the business agreement between USRAC and CSMC, new M-21s bearing the Winchester name were expensive -- beginning at an astounding $50,000,for Grand American-and-above-quality guns. This effectively put them out of reach for all but the wealthiest collectors.

... Arriving last year to fill the gap between rising demand for old 21s and the staggering prices of new Winchester Custom Shop guns were CSMC's new M-21s. These new guns begin at about $10,000 for a Grade 21-1 and climb from there. Though this is hardly inexpensive, new 21s remain approachable by a far larger segment of the shooting community than would a new Custom Shop version. (New Winchester-marked 21s will still be available, although Galazan is keen to stress that CSMC 21s "have nothing to do with the Winchester Custom Shop.")"

Don, I guess we didn't make this up.

Jay

It sounds like Vic Venter's should have checked with Olin Corp prior to putting that stuff in print. Sounds like he just took someones word as Gospel. I guess it goes back to the old saying 'one shouldn't believe everything one reads'. Also, I don't think anyone contributing to this thread was intentionally telling a lie.....rather, just misinformed.

On the contrary, there's no reason to think anything Tony G. told Venters was incorrect. He had a contract to build high grade Win. M-21s, openly advertised this, was careful to distinguish manufacture of CSMC 21s from his authorization to build the Win. M-21. No one has offered any basis for questioning that Galazan's had this license from 1996 until at least 2003. That someone randomly contacted at Olin licensing in 2011 wasn't familiar with the history of this contract with USRAC is no evidence that it didn't exist. It's absurd to think Galazan's would publicize, offer, build and sell Winchester-marked M-21s without authorization.

That article doesn't include the fact that he sold the majority of M21 parts, fixtures, wood, and machinery (including the Winchester Custom Shop matting machine) to Andy Wojtowycz beginning of 2000.

"He" being Tony Galazan? If so, I assume Tony had another matting machine to complete his guns?

What makes you think that Vic's story was not true? Who's to say that your source was the correct one?