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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,859 Likes: 15
Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,859 Likes: 15 |
I don't know for certain, but I'm pretty sure this Tolley boxlock predates Beesley's patent and the first gun Purdey's built on it. http://www.dogsanddoubles.com/2011/06/the-worlds-first-self-opener/Has anyone else seen one of these or know more about them? Thanks OWD
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Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,030 Likes: 127
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,030 Likes: 127 |
OWD: I can't answer your question as to whether that mechanism is the first for self-opener but I can say what a cool gun! The mechanism looks so simple. I wonder though if the cuts made in the frame to accomodate the self opener don't weaken it. Geoffrey Boothroyd in his book 'Sidelocks and Boxlocks' stated Tolley in his opinion couldn't be classed as a 'great' gunmaker but did deserve a place in the historical record. If Tolley was the first to invent the self opening mechanism then I think in this instance Boothroyd may have been wrong in terms of Tolley and their 'greatness'!
Socialism is almost the worst.
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,164 Likes: 11
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,164 Likes: 11 |
OWD.I believe that this action is a variant of H.Tolley patent #461 of 1877. The origional patent was intended as a self cocking system for hammer guns.J.& W.Tolley often utilized the patents of H.Tolley in their guns;for example in their "Giant Grip",actions. The F.Beesley patent #31 of 1880 for a spring cocking hammerless gun post dates the Tolley patent.This issue is reviewed by David Baker on page 104 of,"the British Shotgun Vol;2. David Baker gives credit to H.Tolley for the invention of the first action for a spring cocked gun,but then elects to group it with other inventions for self cocking hammer guns.
Roy Hebbes
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,859 Likes: 15
Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,859 Likes: 15 |
Roy & Buzz,
Thanks for the input. I'll dig up my copy of Crudgington & Baker and take a look.
BTW: "Spring cocking" is an interesting idea. I bet this is what Tolley and Beesley were really after, rather than a self-opening action.
I never seen any early Purdey promotional material that pushes the "self-opening" aspects of their hammerless sidelocks.
OWD
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Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,030 Likes: 127
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,030 Likes: 127 |
OWD: Yes, but don't Purdey guns cock on closing the action? If this is the case, Purdey was never looking for a self cocking mechanism but rather self opening. Correct?? Thx. Buzz
Socialism is almost the worst.
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 33
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 33 |
I thought that the first self opener action was patented by Holland and Holland? I know it would not necessarily mean that H&H was first in building it but I am pretty sure they had the first patent. MDE
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