doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Choke in a Bird Gun

A couple years ago, I bought a NID 410 ejector with 28" bbls. and chokes that were marked F/M. I was so excited just to find the gun I failed to check a few things. When I got the gun home, I found the chokes had been recut to mod/cyl. I was really disappointed. So much so that I cut the chambers to 3" with long cones. Really long cones.

It was past the bird seasons but I was going on a wallyworld farm hunt that weekend for chukar and pheasant. So, I figured I bring it along. First shot with a 11/16 oz #6 shell out of the cyl barrel, cartwheeled a chukar coming straight at me. Not much of a test, but gave me some confidence, and confidence is all important when shooting a 410. Shots on pheasant and chukar that day were at various ranges and I came to trust that cylinder barrel out to about 30 yds.

I have since patterned that gun and found the gun shoots much tighter than the chokes would indicate.

It's become my go-to gun for valley quail and what I took with much confidence on a little mearns hunt.

You never know how a given choke will pattern until you shoot it with a given shotshell and look at the holes in the paper. Cylinder should pattern around 70% at 25 yards. That should make it as effective at 25 yards as full is at 40 yards (same pattern percentage).

Grouse and woodcock are not doves, ducks and turkeys. Because grouse and woodcock are relatively small and fairly fragile birds and are typically shot at close range, you can use relatively small shot--which means that 70% of even a 3/4 or 7/8 oz load at 25 yards is going to be a pretty dense pattern.

The gun I describe in the article in Pointing Dog Journal, a Sauer 20 gauge on which I had the (already fairly open) right barrel bored out to cylinder, works extremely well at skeet with 3/4 ounce reloads of 8 1/2's. I don't anticipate much problem with grouse and woodcock, at which I'll shoot 7/8 oz loads.

I'd guess that 23 yards would be on the long side of average for most grouse hunters, unless they do a lot of late season hunting. Most places, when grouse season opens and for the first few weeks of the season, you're lucky if you can see a bird 23 yards away.

When I'm upland hunting with my Remington 10 bore I tap my foot and whistle the whole Dixie song. Well maybe not that extreme but I do take my time before pulling the trigger so I don't have pheasant burger seasoned with incredible amounts of lead and feathers. I don't own a cylinder bore and never will.

Frequently the Bobwhite flies around to the backside of a cedar bush, mesquite tree, hill, or plum thicket and I don't have time to whistle Dixie. Somtimes when they are pointed out in the open areas I do. But then I have the mod choked left barrel and the back trigger available to me.

Best,

Mike

Larry: I certainly don't want you to take my disagreement on this issue personally as I think a lot of you and your writing and value your opinion enormously. In terrms of the boring of these guns I think you hit the nail on the head when you said pattern each barrel with each shell. I believe barrel dynamics to be extremely complicated. NO two guns shoot alike; therefore, as you mentioned scientific patterning should take place in evaluating barrels. That's what Eyster does. They pattern guns, ream a little , then repattern hopefully with the goal of one pellet per square inch for a given yardage (approx). My point is I believe this is what should be done rather than just reaming her to cylinder and hope she shoots a good pattern at 25 yds. Also, in the thick popple I want a blunderbuss not a 20 bore when hunting Grouse. Grouse are in other places too and sometimes offer lomger shots. I know because I have spent every year of the last 20 in the Ottawa National Forest chasing these birds. Sometimes they will even fly straight down a trail.

I think Amarillo Mike slurred my Dawgs, but it's hard to tell cuz he talks so uppity. My favorite Pheasant gun, an "FE" 16 bore Lefever is choked IC and Full according to Mr. Buck Hamlin. Seems to work well. My 2nd go to gun, a "G" Lefever is choked Cyl-IC. I didnt know that until Joe Wood went and measured it at Raton a couple of years ago. I regularly shoot sporting clays with that gun, and bust stuff way out there. I have to say, I dont understand the compulsion to plan on changing chokes in guns that havnt even been bought yet, or shot much. I shoot an "E" 10 bore Lefever a lot during the bird season, its heavy enough, and my reflexes have gotten slow enough that I dont have to do much whistling before the shot...I never change chokes on anything, learn how it shoots , and then shoot it...

Buzz, if you spend much time in the Ottawa, you probably have more long shots than I do. I've pretty much given up hunting there. It seems as if they do almost no cutting, the result being that it's a lot more mature forest than the places I do most of my hunting.

The gun in question did not have a lot of choke in the R barrel to begin with: factory IC, about .006, so not a lot of reaming to do. One of the patterns I used as an illustration in that article was the result of a Polywad SpredR, which is another option. Shot from a barrel that was a tighter IC than my Sauer, there was very little difference between it and the patterns I got with my bored-out tube. But in the case of that Sauer, it'll be pretty much strictly a grouse and woodcock gun. And after the woodcock have gone and the leaves are down, I'll use something tighter. But since I now live in very good grouse and woodcock country, it'll get plenty of use.

Pheasants present some real contrasts when it comes to shots. Although they have a well-earned reputation as runners, in good cover they'll sit about as tight as any bird you'll ever hunt. One of those C/F Brit doubles would not be a bad choice. As someone above noted, on a long shot, you can always select the tight barrel if your gun comes equipped with the proper number of triggers.

Also guys, I think we need to keep in mind most hunters are not into guns and ballistics like those of us of this forum. The vast majority are going to Walmart and buying the cheapest shells they can find.....what I call SH7T SHELLS. You know, those high pressure shells wih crummy wads, lots of powder and soft, irregular shot, all with real high chamber pressures. How are these going to shoot through a reamed out cylinder bore? Like SH7T I would imagine!! Larry, in his article was patterning with AA light #8 shot, which IMHO is an entirely different animal and something a lot of ignorant hunters have never heard of.

Are you sure that they said the average shot at a ruffed grouse was at 23 yards, and not that the average shot was less then 23 yards?
And this is from Bob Brister's book.
"In the thousands of patterns tested by Oberfell and Thompson for their "Mysteries of shotgun Patterns" the point is made repeatedly that the pure-cylinder choke(no choke at all) throws the most even patterns of all. That is in layman's language, the patterns have fewer patches or holes relative to the spread of the load......I do know that at 25 yards a pure-cylinder barrel will throw one of the deadliest game-getting patterns you ever looked at, more efficient at that yardage, then a full-choke barrel at 50 yards."
Pete

Page 101 New England Grouse Shooting by W H Foster 'In referring to some carefully-kept records covering the last ten yearsof average New England grouse shooting, we find that the average distance at which grouse were killed throughout the seasons was in the neighborhood of 23 yards. These records were compiled by shooters of average reactions who use guns weighing a little under 6 pounds. This average distance will seem short to those who have never taken the time to measure the ranges at which grouse, both early and late in the season, are actually hit.'