doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com CSMC rocks

I am a doozy. What's your excuse?
JR

I think CSMC is like the Orvis of the shotgun world. Orvis draws a lot of snide comments, which I think are the result of Orvis's marketing. They have built an empire that started off with fly rods and expanded, based on great marketing.

Orvis is disdained by some, although they make a fine fly rod, great fly reels, and just about everything to do with flyfishing. However, they branched out...clothing, furniture, even shotguns.

So the name had a lot of name recognition, which kinda soured on some people, mostly wannabe purists and posers. It became "the thing to do" to dismiss Orvis on its face.

So CSMC draws criticism partially because of their success. How many other shotguns are made here in the U.S? They may not be top of the line (the RBL) but they're very good guns nonetheless, and represent the sole entry, so far as I know, in American made shotguns.

Interesting and apt analogy - both companies tend to get over their skis on the marketing front and diminish their brand as a result. Orvis' shotgun operation is a bit of enigma - I am not sure if they are selling many if any of their new branded guns. I recently bought a mid-90s Orvis Arrieta - 16 ga round body - and it is a peach that was substantially discounted to identical Model 871s.

Some of you may have seen these posts earlier this year on another forum - it is hard to criticize Tony Galazan after reading it:

Fox repair
Fox repair 2

Very fair questions Chief.

The romance of any Winchester made before 1964 is it was American inginuity at its finest. Winchester Proof steel for its time was revolutionary, its really never been equaled. Recievers were made out of billets of forged steel, thrown in a machine and a person operated the machine, got greasey, dirty and grimey. Workers sometimes got fed up with management and went on strike. Winchesters and the 21 were OUR way of doing things, not the English way, not the Italian way, and for that matter not the Fox way.

Winchester was America's gun, something the average man could relate to and aspire to own, and the 21 was the top of the line. I can see ever-so-slight daylight between the barrel flats and the water table of the reciever on mine, but it lock up tight barrel-to-breech and keep on going every time. They are the opposite end of the world from any of my Purdeys, but I still love them. Every well worn and loved Winchester has a story to tell. Its like a Harley Davidson, if you have to explain, you wouldn't understand.

As for my RBL, you guys made me get it out of my case in its unfired state and look at it once again, you be the judge!! Tony needs to take care of this stock fitup, its gotten worse since I've owned it

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Clif,

I can appreciate your response and it's sentiment. I would agree with your "pre 1964" observation which would apply to several makers of American firearms. If Win. was still in business and were making the M21 today I would imagine that they would employ the most modern methods to bring them to completion. The RBL is also an American made gun according to the advertising. This was a very large factor in my purchase of one.

I can't tell you if the Win steel is superior to the "86-20" steel of the RBL. The Win 21 was built to be stronger than any other SxS known according to the "test". Since there wasn't and isn't a alarming number of modern doubles flinging their parts to the winds while shooting appropriate ammo is stronger necessarily superior? At what point does stronger become overkill and actually make the gun less than ideal from a handling perspective?

I can't fault you on being upset about the wood on your RBL. That fit is unacceptable. A lot of the RBL criticism is justified when you see the real proof of it. I had no such issues with my RBL. I did not go with a wood upgrade and in my view won the CSMC wood lottery with a very nicely figured 2X stock, that fits as I expect a 3K gun to fit. The wood is slightly proud of and tight to the metal. If only they had considered leaving off most of the "engraving"!

Chief

Who designed the RBL?

If I had to guess I would say SKB! Internally its the same as my Ithaca-SKB 200E. No, Im just kidding, all other similarities aside I think CSMC basically "designed" it themselves with the help of other existing and expired designs.

"represent the sole entry, so far as I know, in American made shotguns."

Kolar shotguns are 100% made in the USA.-Dick

' I can see ever-so-slight daylight between the barrel flats and the water table of the reciever on mine, but it lock up tight barrel-to-breech and keep on going every time."

That gap is supposed to be there, according to Michael Mcintosh.

I know, that is part of the magic of the 21, and something you'd never see on a Purdey or Boss, but it works and I love em.