doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Heavy 20 gauge guns before WWI.

In this post, �Heavy 20� stands for a 20 gauge double barreled shotgun, made to shoot 12-gauge loads, and produced before or immediately after the first World War.

In Russia, their population was due to the writings of one Sergei Ivaschentsev. At the end of the XIX century he published a number of articles on the topic of the �universal� (�all-around�) gun. His logic was simple � if the introduction of smokeless powders caused the turn to small bores with a noticeable increase in range and overall efficiency in rifles, the same principles ought to be applied to shotguns, and the perfect gun was a 20 bore strong enough to shoot 12-bore loads and weighing about 7 pounds (sort of like 20 ga. 3� magnum 60 years before).

He had the Royal Armory in Tula make heavy 20s of the �Ivaschentsev system� (I wonder how much Ivaschentsev there was in the system, because the guns looked a lot like the Rugby rising bite underlever sidelocks). This was before progressive-burning powders, so to make the 20-bore gun to shoot 32 gr./1 1/8 oz of shot safely, the barrel walls had to be so thick, that the guns ended up weighing over 7 1\2 pounds, and actually close to 8.

These guns had quite a bit of a following in Russia. A few people of note had heavy 20s, especially biologists who used them for collecting specimens of wildlife (so the attraction might have been that a heavy 20 shot better than a 12 with small loads, while allowing the use of 12-bore loads as well). Some Russians, obviously, ordered their heavy 20s abroad; one famous biologists had a Scholberg, another � a Sauer. I�ve seen pics of Belgium-made Greener of the type, and saw a 1927 classified offering to trade a Holland Royal Deluxe, 20 gauge weighing about 8 pounds, for a London best 12-bore game gun.

Ivaschentsev�s System was dropped with the World War, but TOZ made quite a lot of their Model B hammer guns as heavy 20s between the Wars and after WWII (some of the reason behind these guns was the production costs, the outer dimensions of the barrels and the action being exactly the same as the regular 16-gauge guns). The one I handled, belonging to a farmer, weighed exactly the same as the farmer�s other gun, the MP153 semiauto. The farmer saw no reason to own the 20 that weighed like a 12, and wanted to sell it, I saw no reason in the �20 for 12� either, so I didn�t buy it, but that�s neither here nor there.

My question is, was this �Heavy 20� thing, in the pre-WWI period, something that happened only to Russia, or was this trend to shift to smaller bores with the same load noticeable in Britain/America/Europe either? In other words, have you seen any heavy 20 guns or read a mention of them in period press?

I've never come across such a thing here in England. The 20 has always been designed as a light weight gun made for light 13/16th. ounce loads as standard. It has only been in recent years that longer chambered 20's have appeared mainly to satisfy foreign trade. I would think that a 12, with its shorter shot column, would have patterned far better with 1 1/8th. ounce loads and been the same weight of gun. Lagopus.....

I thought the 20 was always designed light weight for women and kids.

This is a 1911 ad. I have not seen anything on a "heavy 20" in the USA, France or Belgium. I would love to see pictures of the guns.




Pete

There are the pics of the Greener I mentioned in the first post. http://talks.guns.ru/forummessage/112/503096.html

http://vkontakte.ru/album12855421_136119016
This is the Ivaschentstv's system. It doesn't really look like Rigby rising bite, though, I got it mixed up with the famous Buturlin

Humpty, could you please expound on the thought processes behind a 20ga that weighs more than most 12's? Why not just use a 12? A small bore gun that is heavier than the next gauge larger kind of defeats the purpose, doesn't it? I'm curious what advantages they saw in a heavy 20, other than a smaller frame. Thanks.

Mark, guns made for some type of repetitive shooting or competition shooting might very well be made heavier than normal guns. The Iver Johnson Skeet-ers are a good example of a very rational design following function.

While longer than the "standard" 2 1/2 inch 20-gauge shells were around from virtually the beginning, just like longer 12- and 16-gauge shells, They didn't generally carry a heavier load, just more and better wadding for a better gas seal. By the early teens, the longer 20-gauge shells were being offered with loads of 2 1/2 drams equiv. and 7/8 ounce of shot as opposed to the max loads in the 2 1/2 inch shell of 2 1/4 drams equiv. and 7/8 ounce of shot. The famous "Widgeon Duck Club" heavy Parker Bros. 20-gauge guns were made for these 3-inch shells. Also, briefly before WW-I the J. Stevens Arms & Tool Co. offered their No. 200 pump gun for 3-inch 20-gauge shells --



I have a Parker Bros. GH-Grade heavy 12-gauge of 1889 vintage that was back to Meriden after WW-I for a set of 32-inch 20-gauge Vulcan Steel barrels with 3-inch chambers --





Here are some Rem-UMC Arrow long 20-gauge shells of the 1913-14 vintage -- 3-inch --



2 7/8 inch --





By the later 1920s, at least Peters Cartridge Co. was offering their progressive burning powder loaded High-Velocity shell in longer lengths --



and here is a box of their 3-inch shells with the 1 ounce High-Velocity load --

Pic shows a HEAVY 32-inch 20 gauge barrel #1499xx circa 1909. Vulcan steel, #2 frame size, with original 3-inch chambers and Full & Full chokes. The barrel's unstruck weight is stamped 4-11. VH Parker weighs 8-3 with this fitted 20 gauge barrel, and only 7-11 with its 12 gauge 32 inch barrel. Silvers