doublegunshop.com - home

Here�s the details of the $10,000 Lindner Diamond Grade gun from G & H.

I admired that piece online for months before picking it up. I finally decided to look at in person and arrived at the G & H shop one Saturday morning. I looked down the barrels and noticed gunpowder residue - the salesman (who no longer works there) confirmed the gun had been fired. I trusted their reputation and bought it without concern (I held a 138,000.00 Beruzzi 28 gauge in my arms while the paperwork was processed - sigh). I spoke of using only low pressure shells deisgned for vintage guns such as those from RST (my favorite) or Polywad given the century old age of the piece. He agreed with my ammo choices and added that G & H was close to buying out RST years ago but the deal fell through somehow. I cleaned the bores that afternoon. At that point I noticed the small pits halfway down the barrels. I called G & H regarding the matter and they were happy to remove them � no charge of course. The sales rep actually drove up from Greenwich en route to Rhode Island to meet me outside my office in Middletown. He asked if I still wanted the gun. �If it�s OK to use� I replied. He took it back to have the barrels checked and polished by their gunsmith. He placed it in my hands personally several days later. I asked how much metal was lost �not much - more from the right barrel but within limits�. He was sorry he didn�t have the barrel measurements I requested earlier with him but he assured me that the barrels were safe with RST Lite 2 � low pressure shells. A month later with over two hundred [RST 1 oz. 6800 PSI] thrilling shots fired at the skeet range l noticed the left ejector didn�t lay completely flat against the barrel on close and was worried about possible wear on the breech face. On the phone G & H said the gunsmith went over the gun and there was nothing wrong with it. It still bothered me so a couple of weeks later I dropped it off at Orvis in Manchester, VT to have them look at it. Their gunsmith stated the lug/loop was loose. Repair meant the ribs needed to be relayed including the necessary barrel re-bluing. I requested barrel measurements while they were at it. After several months (it missed my annual grouse hunt in Ontario - the main reason for purchase) I received a call from Orvis's gunsmith telling me that the gun was ready. I inquired about using RST shells safely � affirmative. The gun arrived two days later with invoice but without barrel measurements. Frustrated, I shipped it over to Doug Turnbull the next day for inspection, cleaning and oil including cleaning up/timing screws, and some cosmetic work on the splinter horn tip (I planned to have all that done the next year anyway). After waiting several more months I was notified by email that the "Daly" project at long last was completed. However, a second message followed minutes later with the disturbing news about the right barrel wall at .018. I was crushed. Turnbull�s Shop Supervisor took the time to assure this frantic gun owner over three subsequent phone calls that my gun was safe with RST ammo. The last email he sent to me answered my question regarding the three Lite loads offered by RST stating �Any of those will be fine and safe to shoot�. Turnbull didn�t disappoint � the gun looked as if new!

My long story brings up an interesting question that really bugs me...unless there�s a conspiracy � why would three premier, world renowned gun shops all agree (the last in writing) RST 2 � low pressure rounds are safe to use in this gun?

I'll get G & H to measure the barrels at their Greenwich location or I can take it to Abe Chaber in Danbury, CT. He�s held in high regard for his gunsmithing and expertise on bespoke vintage German double guns especially those made by Lindner.

Lessons in life learned from your troubles. Buy and learn how to use a wall thickness measuring device. When people do not give your simple information that you repeatedly ask for raise Hell or hear major warning bells. For ten grand expect service and goods delivered that meet or exceed expectations. If a gun needs major work after only 200-300 shells it should be returned. I am sorry but for that much money you have had very poor satisfaction and a gun with major warts. I could never look at that gun and not relive most if not all of your pain. Good luck and I hope your list of problems ends here and you have many years of happy enjoyment of this gun.

I suspect you will need to have the gun lined in England to fix your barrel problems. Thin walls may be deemed safe by some to shoot but I would not want anyone not elected to public office to shoot it. Like many home owners you are under water in this gun and will get more so before you are done. It can be fixed properly if you are willing to spend more money.

Thanks for your candid reply KY Jon.

The gun is still beautiful to behold and a fine upland fowling piece. I intend to use it this fall for grouse hunting in Canada. It is light in my hands and points extremely well.

I've read good and ugly reviews on teague lining with cost at 5,000.00. Nothing bad so far regarding sleeving the gun. I contacted Briley - 1,300.00 for 1 barrel - both 1,700.00. Your thoughts?

My $0.02 worth of conjecture and opinion

I doubt a gunsmith at G&H ever measured wall thickness on your gun. Without knowing the depth of the defect before honing, it's impossible to speculate if the pits were that deep, or someone got carried away at the hone. I'll further guess it was a consignment* gun.

If Orvis measured the wall thickness at all, it was after the other work was completed. They might have been a bit sheepish to report (borderline) wall thickness when they just completed $800 in barrel repairs (as opposed checking them prior to quoting the work).

Turnbull's, probably same as Orvis.

*When I was in the business 10 years ago, more often than not, guns were taken on consignment because the owner rejected a reasonable cash offer. Antique consignment guns were taken in, chokes, stock dimensions recorded, and handed over to the gunsmiths to be looked over. That was about it. Occasionally, they would reject a gun for a fault I missed.

Again, 10 years ago dealers rarely, if ever listed wall thickness in an ad. That info was provided if requested, but I never measured or cleaned a consignment gun unless requested or something looked out of sorts. Seems to me, the larger issue lies in what thickness is "safe" at what point, for which gauge, for what steel, at what round count, yada yada yada... anecdotal testimony abounds. Without proof laws, it's caveat emptor (squared) when buying old guns to shoot.

Is it safe? Past performance is not indicative of future results.

Were it me, I'd request a sit down at G&H and see if they will help you recover some part of your current or future (sleeving) losses. They've always been a top drawer outfit.


Good Luck

Thanks for the info Ben.

I can forget collectablity/value at this point. But I still love the gun. I am at a crossroad - teague lining or sleeve option? One or both barrels? There are some beautiful pictures of vintage British Best guns that are [TIG] sleeve lined on the http://www.heritageguns.co.uk/stock.htm website.

PS - I did tell Orvis the barrels were honed before they worked on them.

Joeygrouse,

I'm shocked to hear that this stuff happened to you at Orvis. I find Jordan Smith to be an excellent gunsmith that does not make mistakes like the ones you described.

Now if you conveyed the facts about the honing work to the Bostonian in the gun room that shall remain nameless, I can 100% he would have taken a yah-yah-yah attitude wiht you and omitted that fact to the gunsmith.

I'd suggest you speak with Jordan directly about the situation since they have a 100% satisfaction guarantee at Orvis and the man is a gentleman not prone to disenfanchising customers. You will get your money back or a proper accomodation. I've never, ever heard of Orvis not standing behind their work or their customers.

And for what its worth, I'd definitely forget the sleeving via TIG adn instead would have it go through the Teague Lining process and a reproof at London. The gun will look perfect and you'll get a superior gun than any other option. I think the cost is about $4100-$4500 door-to-door with reproof costs included. A briley tube set is just not the same thing and will make the gun handle like a boat oar 28gauge...it deserves better.

Rookhawk -

Not sure you read my full story - Orvis worked on relaying the ribs and rebluing the barrels. It was G & H that honed the barrels just days after I bought the gun from them.

To me, G&H should have made good on the barrel lug being loose. I would take the bill and go have that sit-down with them and give them the bill. That is why the ejectors didn't lay up against the barrels, with the lug being loose.
Also, while there, I would return the gun to them, .018 is just too thin at that area and the person at G&H should have known better and definitly should have measured the bores and listed them. He screwed up big time.

As for Orvis, if you asked for measurements they should have given them to you before any work was done, shame on them too. Same for Turnbull. It is all about money to them, screw your safety.

Joey, you and I have had some emails on this gun and as you might guess I'm a little reluctant to ever get into these affairs. BUT here's my very humble opinion.

If the pits were minor, in the beginning, as you say then very little honeing would had been needed to remove them. I use a Sunnen hone to remove minor pitting and it would take a LONG time to remove even .005 of steel. It's possible that a reamer was used to remove the pits which is a lot like using a .600 nitro express to shoot a mouse...... a little over-guned! It really appears that those barrels were way to thin in the beginning and should have been noted. In any case the barrels should have been measured before any work was done on them to see if problems were already there.

Again, everthing that I've said above is just my opinion and nothing more.

Doug,

When I'm faced with minor pitting I always err on the side of not taking away metal.

What I do is use a drill with a bronze bristle shotgun brush that is wrapped in 0000 stainless steel wool. I work carefully using ample oil.

In the end, it takes off no metal whatsoever according to a bore diameter or wall thickness gauge. What it does do is seem to remove a lot of patina and corrosion sitting in the pits that are there.

I find that the first rule must be to do no harm. Using the method I describe certainly doesn't cure major problems that require reaming or honing, but it does remarkable clean-up results on guns that actually have much less pitting than appears at first glance. (where it is actually surface corrosion, not deep pits)