doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Help Identifying Belgian Gun

As noted in my replacing an ivory bead post, my wife bought this Belgian 16ga gun for a backup gun to her Webley and Scott 16ga for hunting trips. It has been refinished in the not to distant past. I am trying to identify it and make sense of the proof marks. Any help would be appreciated. I can recognize the basic ones but beyond that nothing more. What do you think approximate date it was made? Also what would the chokes work out to be? Thanks again for any help





















[img]http://i553.photobucket.com/albums/jj377/wburns_bucket/Christinasgun018.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i553.photobucket.com/albums/jj377/wburns_bucket/Christinasgun021.jpg[/img]

AF is Auguste Francotte.
Cheers,
Laurie

WBurns;
operating purely from memory here but i believe the chamber marking of D=65/19.0mm would indicate a pre 1924 gun. This is chamber length & diameter of chamber just in front of rim seat & was used only on guns carrying notro proof from the era. Will dig out my proof book if someone else doesn't have their's handy. The bbls should weigh just over 2 3/4 lbs, by about a half ounce. Nice looking gun for its intended purpose.

Nice looking gun, your wife has good taste, but I guess you already know that!
Steve
My backup guns a beat-up old 870 Express that some Bubba gave a camo paint job to

Here are the Belgian proof marks:
http://damascus-barrels.com/Belgian_All_Proofmarks.html

Miller is correct. It was proofed between 1898-1923. It was nitro proofed. At time of proof, the barrrels weighed 1.261 kgs or 2.78 lbs.

As Laurie stated, it is a Francotte. For more about Francotte:
http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20francotte/a%20francotte%20gb.htm

To help id the model, go here:
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=229328#Post229328

Pete

Gauge over C in a diamond also indicates pre-1924 manufacture. The later guns have gauge and chamber length (16-65, 12-70 for example) in a sort of sideways horseshoe.

Bore 16.8 mm = .661"
Right 16.5 mm = .650" = .011" = Light mod.
Left 16.2 mm = .638" = .023" = Light full

I'd guess that the Belgian craftsman who had the trademark of an encircled H over 2 vertical lines sourced the longarm in the white or a tubeset from Auguste Francotte. Also that same craftsman could be the owner of the encircled Stamped Iron trademark on the standing breech. The initials RM may be that of the barrel knitter. Interesting rectangular crossbolt.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,

This gun was made during a period when some stopped using Belgian steel ( Cockerill ). From about 1900 to 1920 ( very rough range ) FN & Pieper were using only Seimens-Martin for their fluid steel barrels. Francotte was heavily tied to FN, so I suspect he followed suite. After about 1920 we start seeing the familiar Acier Cockerill again. The museum curators estimate that except for this brief period, 95% or better of all fluid guns produced in Belgium were by Cockerill.

So, if you are looking for the owner of that deeply stamped H, while it could be Max Neumann, I would look towards Germany.

Pete

Peter

You've said a mouthful and confirms we are on the same page in the same book & possibly same verse. I thought it to be brother Neumann also and was going to check his serial number sequence.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse