doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Three Big Jokes on guns

Introducing a kid to shotguns with a .410 is perfectly acceptable, as long as you monitor his progress closely and he understands it's limitations. Great for squirrels and rabbits for a beginner, and fully capable of bagging a limit of doves or quail when used properly.

My 9 year old grandson, in his first year of wingshooting this year took 28 doves with a .410 S x S. I moved him up to the 20 ga. the last two shoots with results being about the same, or less, than with the .410.

The little guns are deadly in the hands of a good shot, who naturally will use it within it's limitations. I dare say that more potential shotgunners have given it up due to poor, or non-existent coaching, than by the limitations of a .410.

If you aren't capable of using the .410 properly, leave it to the hands of those who are. But, don't badmouth it just because you read something somewhere you like the sound of, or you won't go to the trouble to learn to shoot it and estimate range. I'm a great fan of Buckingham, and he was purportedly a great shot, but he was not an expert on everything shotgun, IMO.

SRH

I never in a million years thought it would ever happen, but I finally pulled a jewel out of RWTF�s ADD afflicted stream-of-conscience ramblings. RWTF said, �more youngster who were first started into shotgunnery- and bird hunting by a parent who gave them a .410 single shot either (1) swapped it for a 20 gauge or (2) gave um shotgunnery and took up ping-pong instead!!�. Seeing as how the .410 is so despised by many, I have to wonder if a lot of the .410 naysayers feel that way just because a .410 was their first gun. When you miss your target It�s only human nature to blame your gun, and let�s face it, you tend to miss more often when you're just learning to shoot. I imagine a lot of folks found themselves saying �If Dad had only given me a real gun, a 12 gauge for my birthday, instead of this stupid .410 I�d have made that shot!� When actually he still would�ve missed, but it�s easier on the ego to simply blame the gun.

Thanks RWTF for the insight you gave me through your words.

Steve

I argue the man shooting the gun determines the outcome: clean kill, cripple, miss or shot not taken.

I don't own a .410

+100

Any Gun, Any Gauge, Anywhere.......

My son's first flying clay break was with a .410. That was a M-20 Winchester, full. Thoughts of ballistic inefficiencies didn't preoccupy him, apparently, and two weeks later he turned 7. He had to hit every single presentation on a skeet field with that little gun before I sprang for the 391 Y-model. It didn't take him long.

Now 15, his 391 12 regularly bests me at the NSCA game. He still likes .410s, though he prefers M-42s.

Sam

Heh-heh. Witty and pithy. Shot any hens lately?
To clarify the use of tungsten shot. It�s not for everybody and is similar to your grandfather�s #9 lead shot in size only. It�s not available commercially loaded in shells. With its current price, it probably won�t be. The cheapest source is $50/lb. Shot density is expressed in grams per cubic centimeters (g/cc). The standard, lead shot is 11.1 g/cc. Steel shot, 7.86. Bismuth, 9.60. Tungsten Iron, 10.60. Hevi shot, 12. The tungsten shot used in my handloads is rated at 18, but has been tested to be 17.6. For comparision. depleted uranium used in military applications such as the A-10�s 30mm cannon�s round: 18.6. Saboted tungsten rods are used in tank killer rounds because of tungsten�s density and hardness. There is a small group of hand loaders that load tungsten shot for turkeys. We buy the shot from a fellow hand loader who is an importer with a direct source in China. We use shot cups designed for steel shot with a mylar wrap inside. It shoots almost too tight; I have abandoned buffer because it�s tight enough for me without it. We don�t want a loose shot outside the wad because it will mar a barrel. The range of shot size used is 7, 8, 9. #9 is sufficient to effectively kill turkeys beyond what some consider ridiculous and ethical ranges. I have experimented with all of the above sizes, but the density of #9 shot loads is superior and It will completely penetrate a gobbler, breaking bones as large as leg bones at 40 yards. Head and neck shots will drop a gobbler like a sack of hammers. This is based on my experience. I don�t know this author, can�t vouch for the accuracy of what others have said about their usage, but based on my experience at ranges from 30-40 yards, it rings of truth:
http://oldgobbler.com/Forum/index.php/topic,7593.0.html

Being new to the board, I'm curious: using commercially available loads, exactly what (ethical) rough-shooting experiences on wild birds in the field and on the water would lead one to exclude the use of the 'joke' loads in a particular situation, keeping the kill vs. cripple equation in mind? I apologize in advance if I didn't get the 'joke' on this thread.

More turkeys have been killed with the old M-97 and ounce and a quarter than all the other guns combined. Of course that was because the 97 was around way before the others. Any man who thinks he is a sportsman taking a shot beyond 35/40 yards is feeding the foxes. Experience? Hell yes! I am 75 and now too sick to do any hunting. The ammo makers have contributed to this magnum nonsense. Remember the old Remington boxes with a greenhead in flight (boxed .410) saying Extra Long Range? The English had it figured out a hundred years ago. They were killing high driven pheasants with 1%1/16 oz. 12 bores. And as for geese, I shot one lagging bird with 7/8 oz. of #8 shot with my Model 17 Remmy. Came down, head and neck shot, like a bag of chicken livers. My TCW in retaliation. Chops

Chops,
I imagine early man killed a lot of game with snares, pits and deadfalls before he discovered the atlal and spear, but he didn't stop there. Neither did guns and ammo development. Neither Winchester nor Remington stopped with the M97 and M17 and you feel they were more than adequate. Why shouldn't there be more powerful ammo and guns because some feel they can get by with less power? Blaming the misuse of magnum ammo on manufacturers seems no different than blaming gun violence on the gun manufacturers. Buying guns and ammo has never been as much about "need" as it is about "want". I'm going to go out on a limb and guess you have had more guns than the M17 and M97 (not clear if you had that one, too). It sounds like you had it pretty well covered with just those two guns, but I'm happy for you if you didn't stop there. I understand. I have years ago passed the stage of having all the guns that I've needed, but not all I want. Best, Gil
PS. Missed the part where you are too sick to hunt. Hope it's not serious and good health soon returns.

Sorry you can't get out in the field Chops, maybe next season. Could be there's more than one way to skin a cat.