doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com HEY - Rocketman!!!! Here's another load

I have heard folks say on this forum, "I can put all the buckshot from my Sauer 3000 into a 10" circle at 40 yds, and now, I hear of miracle patterns with soft shot in bygone days...maybe, but you will have to show me! My experience has been that a number of shotguns are a law unto themselves to a certain extent. Turkey chokes don't always work in all guns. Shooting IS the proof of pudding, often with alterations occurring in stages until the desired outcome is achieved. I have seen as many patterns ragged from overchoke as improved. Wish I had the answer, but I mostly have more questions--like about the specific contour of the forcing cones both out of the chamber and entering the choke. Lots and lots of variables concerning straightness, concave tapers (especially after honing) and the effects on shot column repositioning. This is without the differing hardness levels of shot, "bounce effects" of steel-hard shot, etc. We'll be around many a campfire all night before I am convinced...but I still like to hear you talk about it, so pass the popcorn and coke! Steve

"I have shot 60 yard patterns with 1 1/4 ounces of soft fours that would kill a mallard dead in any part of the 30" pattern."

Musta been really big mallards.

No offense, but like shooting 'pigs' in a ring, its always better to be lucky than good;-)

Some get quite fat.

What would the shot cloud look like for 1 1/4 oz. load at 60 yds...unless you tied the duck, he would have to fly THROUGH it, and that means less hits than represented on the pattern board. Steve (especially with those old long shot strings...)

I don't know what the pattern looks like at 60yds (extrapolate the decay on that) but I know I've killed pigeons stone dead at the far fence a couple times w/ std pigeon loads and that takes more than a couple pellets at 50+yds. And like TW said it's always better (WAY BETTER)to be lucky than good and that's what it was for sure. But the pattern was there, at least enough of it that the bird caught. But then, one 71/2 in the right spot will kill a pigeon so you still know zip.

And I have a solid background in stats and that is why I'm aware of the limitations w/out adequate substantiation.

Rocketman, I'm still debating Vegas. Sometimes difficult to see the value in a trip w/ no purpose other than fingerprinting some guns I really have little interest in. The coolest thing I saw there last year was a totally zoot vintage Coca-Cola tray. I don't want to say it wasn't worth the trip, but ........

have a day

Dr.WtS

a common malady for researchers



have a day

Dr.WtS

Wonko, thanks for your last post with text. It reminded me that my regular pigeon gun had gotten a bit beyond my ability to score well with at the 30. The .040 chokes in the Parker make me feel I might do as well with a .22 rifle. Last week, I shot my little Evans crossover gun, bored .010 and .025 with some #8 trap loads. On the last field I killed five birds dead, the third sneaking over the far fence before expiring. The point I am trying to make in my original posts is that I was firing the tightest patterns I will ever need fifty years ago. Experimentation is wonderful, but not of much use to shooters. However, the sarcasm about my posts is appreciated. Yes, my 90% patterns with soft shot were repeated, many times. I also realize the limitations of tight patterns on crossing targets at 60 yards. The hits on a "non crossing" target at sixty yards are exactly as they look on the pattern board.

Actually, Rman, you can't "know" what % of unbroken targets had what number of hits. Well, maybe you could right now, in my neck of the woods in northern WI, because we have a few inches of fluffy snow on the ground, thus cushioning the impact when a target lands. But if we're talking bare ground, some targets not broken by the shot will break when they land, especially if the ground is hard. All we know, from picking up unbroken targets with hits, is that it's not at all unusual to find targets with a single hole that didn't break, and not really rare to find targets with 2 holes. All of which, in the minds of many of us who've looked at enough unbroken targets, is sufficient to cause us to be skeptics when someone tells us that a lot of targets (what %?) break as a result of a single pellet strike. If Dr. Jones can show us the evidence (which would pretty much have to be photographic, not compiled via computer and pattern analysis) that X% of targets hit with a single pellet will break, then he'll have more believers.

WtS, what do you mean, "w/out adequate substantiation?" What is it you would consider "substantiation?"

Lucky shots tend to muddy experience. Serial repetition and statistics make data. Dr. Jones is presenting real live data.

Hope you decide to come LV - would enjoy a visit.

DDA

8-b, if the good Dr. figgers out this turkey choke thing and tighter patterns become generally available, you are just gonna have to get back out there and learn to shoot 'em. I understand you are satisfied with the current state of shotgun development. Some of us wonder if there are developments left to discover - just for the sake of the understanding if nothing else. Your position is probably the majority position, too. Yet, I see no need to "dis" research or attack researchers.

If you average the position of a target within the pattern, the probability of the number of hits at that average location tells you the probability of a "dead" target. Keep in mind that all shotgun "kills" are based on probabiity; not two patterns are exactly the same.