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It appears Mike solved this problem regarding heat treated steel with Winchester Model 21's and Winchester Proof Steel.
. It appears Winchester used very high quality steel making their guns. My question now refers to the new Model 21 made by Galazan: is the steel used by them to make all these 21's as good as Winchester proof steel and what is the make up of their steel and where do they buy it or produce it??

Actually Buzz I just said twice what you said first but never mind that. I was right! I was right!

We know that gun manufacturers always told the truth about their products, so -----. Hard to believe they machined a heat treated bar or heat treated finished barrel. Maybe!! Since they didn't reduce the weight of the barrel (retain equal strength), but, rather, stuck to normal barrel weights (thus, higher strength)their barrels were seriously overbuilt. Beyond braggin' rights, to what purpose? And, who was likely to check on the steel strength?

Why so they could win the proof load contest of course! If I ever need a shotgun for shooting several hundred proof loads it will be the 21.

I have an old beater 21 trap gun with 32" barrels that has ring bulges in it just like a couple of my old beater Parker VHs. I feel much safer shooting the 21.


Best,

Mike

Wow, I didn't mean to start a fight over it. What about the lowly but rugged 311's. They were stamped barrel and lug forged in one piece. A hardware store gun with c/l's? Chops

Mine was meant in fun and meant to be self deprecating humor and I certainly wasn't fighting.

I concede Rocketman's last points; Why and Who.

Best,

Mike

Is the suggestion here that there's no value in using steel stronger than required for normal purpose? No value in strength to perhaps withstand out of norm events due to human error in gun safety? Maybe unnecessary steel strength has spared someone injury, or more serious injury? I see some value, so guess I'm who ... even though "why" is way out there on the margins.

Jay

Didn't Winchester take great delight in blowing up English game guns during that test?

If I recall correctly, the test only involved other contemporary American doubles--all of which survived, at a minimum, dozens of proof loads. Given that the standard proof for an English game gun is about 5,000 psi lower than the American SAAMI standard, it wouldn't be quite kosher to subject them to the same proof loads as 21's. A gun that has passed CIP/British magnum/superior proof, on the other hand, is subjected to essentially equal proof pressures.

Schwing reports it as Larry remembers. No English guns.

The Fox Sterlingworth failed after 80 proof rounds...Ithaca after 56...Parker Trojan went 305... The results for the L.C. Smith firing records have been lost, but it was reported that the gun failed during the proof test. The Winchester Model 21 fired 2,000 rounds and was still in good working order.

There is a footnote that says this information was in the Winchester Repeater, Fall of 1984, Volume 1, pp 12 and 13.

So if things are as they are reported by Winchester there is strength and longevity value to the steel and the processes they used in the 21.

Best,

Mike