doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com J J Simon shotgun

I have an old double barrel shotgun marked:
J J Simon Maker Chicago
(on the top of the barrel and just above the triggers)
I believe it is damascus steel.
It appears to say "Not for ball" beneath the forestock.
What does that mean?
I have photos of some symbols under the forestock. If I can figure out how to post them, I am curious what they mean as well as when it was made.
Thanks, CWK

Hello CWK and welcome to The Board.

"Not for ball" means that that barrel is tightly choked and not meant to fire solid lead balls.

If you cannot figure out how to post photos you can mail them to me and I'll do it for you. In any case, to be able to post them yourself you need to upload them to some site such as Picasa.

I should add that it is better, to have clear photos, to use a tripod and no flash and add some light with a desk lamp. I am not talking professional here, only to get proper detail so the local experts can give you adequate information.

Best,

JC

J J Simon is found on guns in Chicago and California. The examples I have seen looked to be started in England and others in Germany. Some were of plain finish, but a hammergun exhibits a lot of gold inlay. All appear to be quality products. Both hammerguns and concealed hammerguns have been observed. If you wish, you can email photos to me and I will post them. My email address is in my profile.

I see JayCee has offered to post pics for you, too. No need to duplicate.

Hi CWK,

Here are the pictures you sent me. Surely they'll enable you to get more info.
Text included with photos:
"As you can see, the butt plate is missing.
Other than the patina, it is mechanically in good shape.
I'm really curious about when and where it was made and the value".












You are welcome,

JC

Well, it was started in England as it has the English proof marks.

Like several of the Illinois and midwest makers, the gun appears to have had it's start with Westley Richards. Toplever and WR stamp give some hint of this. I am not sure what the R & S Patent , No. 397 is, but in those days, the 397 was usually a Patent Use number. One might guess the R in R & S stands for Richards, but I do not know the source of the S. Unusual sideplates should give someone some hints.

JayCee,
The gun was made in Birmingham almost certainley by J.P.Clabrough for J.J.Simon.Chicago.
Patent #397 was registered on 29 Jan;1881 to J.T.&J.Rogers,gun action filers working for the trade,located at 78 Lower Tower Street,Birmingham.The Rogers brothers obtained U.S. patent #257.764 in 1882,which they assigned to J.P.Clabrough who had manufacturing cability in Birmingham coupled with a strong U.S distribution dealer network based in San Francisco.
The proof marks are Birmingham Black powder.The Not For Ball mark tells us the gun was made between 1875&1887.
I can find no information On J.J. Simon,Chicago.
Many of Clabroughs early hammerless guns featured the action shown in the photographs.
Roy

Roy, I am always interested when I see you have posted on the bbs. Always a learning experience with well thought our replies. Looking at the Simon gun, Chicago, I still seem to see a Westley Richards connection to this gun.

On page 72 of Crudgington and Baker they state the Rogers patent, No 397 of 1881 was "used up and down the trade", so apparently many makers used it for a time. Given the WR stamp on the gun and the Westley Richards top lever, I am lead to think that Westley Richards may have been responsible for making this gun for Simon, at least in part. Westley Richards was making , or starting , guns for others in the US. We see their hand in Pittsburg Firearms, and many of the Illinois and other midwest makers. It may not be a fair observation, but the Simon gun seems finished to a higher standard than the Clabrough and Clabrough and Golcher guns I have seen. I don't remember seeing either with the Westley Richards toplever.

Finally, what names can we apply to the initials in the R & S Patent No. 397 ?

I would be interested in your thoughts

I had an inquiry about this maker several weeks ago and have been trying to reconstruct some of my shotgun records that I removed from my computer.

If I remember correctly he worked for E. Thomas Junior in Chicago, I believe there's a shotgun with both their names on it and I have seen shotguns with just the Simon name on them and Chicago.

By, 1900 he is in Santa Rosa California.

If and when I can dig out more I'll post it.


1900 United States Federal Census about Joseph J Simon
Name: Joseph J Simon
Age: 49
Birth Date: Jun 1850
Birthplace: Austria
Home in 1900: Santa Rosa, Sonoma, California
Race: White
Gender: Male
Immigration Year: 1872
Relation to Head of House: Head
Marital Status: Married
Spouse's Name: Mary A Simon
Marriage Year: 1876
Years Married: 24
Father's Birthplace: Austria
Mother's Birthplace: Austria
Occupation: Gunsmith
Household Members:
Name Age
Joseph J Simon 49
Mary A Simon 43
Emma F Simon 22
Joseph F Simon 21
Mary Simon 19
Edward C Simon 16
Elizabeth H Simon 14
Gladys T Simon 9/12

Vorisek does not anything on have him. Neither does Johnson in his "Gun Makers of Illinois". Johnson does have a couple of paragraphs on E. Thomas. Sellers simply lists him as being in Santa Rosa in 1893.

Pete