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Joined: Jul 2008
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,008 |
Chuck, I think you're right. As I understand it, only the maker can give a gun a "Best" And in theory a Best is made without regard to price point - it is worked on until it can't be made any better. But it has to be from a handful of acknowledged makers. There's a lot of confusion about this - one often hears people arguing that a Mossberg is "best" for me  or that a Dingblat is "best" for ducks and so forth.
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,954 Likes: 14
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,954 Likes: 14 |
"Best", in the British trade, would have meant a sidelock ejector gun, 100% engraving coverage, stocked to the fences, chopperlump barrels, fine and flawless checkering. Nice definition of a "London Best." But, with Rocketman's permission, we can't overlook his "brand value" category. BV, per my research is applicable in the used (skuz me, pre-caretakered) market. It did not apply nearly as clearly when new guns were being built as there was not a big difference in what it cost to build a gun in London as compared to Birmingham. Jeffery sold a best gun for 55 BPS as compared to about 75 BPS for typical London, but his was a cash on the barrel head deal - no credit (Brit aristocracy was notoriously slow to pay their bills). Quite a few (I think, for practical purposes, all as a best gun could be ordered for resale from several shops in Birmingham) Brit makers were fully capable of turning out a "best" gun, but the price would likely be lower (only slightly) than an equivalent Purdey, Boss, H&H, or Woodward, because in those cases you're paying for the name as well as for the gun (not near as much differential as in the used market). A Scott might have been every bit the gun, but it didn't have every bit the name. But Scott, in many cases, sold his guns for "Purdey prices" or more.
Gorgeous gun, Joe!
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 6,476 Likes: 350
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 6,476 Likes: 350 |
Joe Wood, I consider your gun a wonderful example of what a boxlock can look like. Best is hard to say, since I think Daly , in the same year as your gun, furnished higher grades of Daly boxlocks than yours. Regent Diamond or similar.
Just to muddy the waters a bit, Greener through the years offered up to 5 grades of what they termed Best guns. From 1893 to 1903 the Greener book lists three grades of Best guns at 55, 70, and 85 guineas. Then in their forend ejector guns [Monarch models] they offered three grades of Best guns, also. These would be Royal at 60gns, Imperial at 70gns, and Presentation at 85gns. These could be either Facile Princeps or Anson and Deeley actions.
Last edited by Daryl Hallquist; 01/12/12 04:51 PM.
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,954 Likes: 14
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,954 Likes: 14 |
Chuck, I think you're right. As I understand it, only the maker can give a gun a "Best" And in theory a Best is made without regard to price point (but in theory only because all guns must be made to known price points, otherwise, the shop goes out of business quickly)- it is worked on until it can't be made any better. But it has to be from a handful of acknowledged makers. Actually, any shop could get out a "best work" gun in the "London best" pattern/fashion by the simple expedient of ordering it from one of the Birmingham makers to the gun trade shops. "Best work" had meaning within the trade, as I understand. Any shop could undertake a "best work" gun secure in the knowledge that there were sufficiently skilled out-workers to make up any lack of skills within the ranks of the shop. Out-workers were used for overflow work and to make up for any lack of skill. So, the concept that only a few makers had the skill needed to make a "best work" doesn't seem to hold up to known trade practices. However, the more obscure the shop, the rarer it is to find a "best work" gun with their name on it.There's a lot of confusion about this - one often hears people arguing that a Mossberg is "best" for me or that a Dingblat is "best" for ducks and so forth. Kinda of a silly argument!
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,544
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,544 |
Earlier posts as to makers names affecting the cost of their best work are incorrect. A Westley Richards could be retailed at 210 guineas when a Purdey sidelock was a little over 100. When a Purdey was 85 guineas, a W&C Scott best grade pigeon gun was 130.
Many makers offered 'best' guns and they were doing so before sidelocks became hammerless.
They were also doing so before sidelocks were generally adopted without shouldered actions.
Best guns were 'normal' guns built to the very highest standards. Many makers offered a 'Presentation' gun or an 'Exhibition' gun, which was more highly embellished with special carving, engraving or inlay. The decoration added to the cost, not the quality elsewhere.
You must look for best quality everywhere. Note that many American guns (I'm told this by american collectors) were the same internally regardless of grade. This shows they were not of the quality of the higher grades of British guns, which were far more complex, finely fitted, delicately filed and carefully burnished internally than the lower grade guns.
A best gun is not a cheap gun with better wood and more engraving. The quality is found throughout. There comes a point when you cannot improve on the quality, only add to the embellishment.
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 496
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 496 |
I hereby suggest that Small Bore has nailed the issue perfectly.
Any further discussion seems superfluous.
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,861 Likes: 15
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,861 Likes: 15 |
OK. Good explanation. But here something else. I'm pulling this from memory, so I may be off. My gun library is still packed away in storage.
As I recall, when Purdey used to make different grades of sidelocks, guess what the difference was between their "Best" grade gun (extra finish was not offered yet) and the next grade down.....
......As far as I can tell from the catalog excerpts printed in Dallas book, it was the amount of engraving on the action. This gun was still made with Whitworth Bbls, on a Beesley action, and it featured ejectors.
OWD
Last edited by obsessed-with-doubles; 01/12/12 08:00 PM.
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,954 Likes: 14
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,954 Likes: 14 |
As I recall, when Purdey used to make different grades of sidelocks, guess what the difference was between their "Best" grade gun (extra finish was not offered yet) and the next grade down..... In some cases like "A" grade, yes/maybe. In lower grades, "B", "C", "D", not usually. Keep in mind that "Funeral" models (basically devoid of engraving) were priced as best work guns. Graded guns lower than being based on the shops basic best model were usually ordered from Birmingham.
......As far as I can tell from the catalog excerpts printed in Dallas book, it was the amount of engraving on the action. This gun was still made with Whitworth Bbls, on a Beesley action, and it featured ejectors. Probably and "A" grade, possibly a "B" with a lot of corners cut.
OWD
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 13,883 Likes: 21
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 13,883 Likes: 21 |
I saw a AYA #2 listed as a "Best" today. Isn't that an oxymoron?
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,574 Likes: 167
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,574 Likes: 167 |
I owned a B Quality Purdey that was an extractor gun. Certainly never thought of it as a "best".
I stand corrected on price comparisons "back in the day". It's interesting to see how things have changed in today's used gun market. For example, the 1936 A&F catalog shows my Sauer Model 280 20ga with a price of $225. The same catalog lists a Parker DHE at $186.50. I'd probably pay about 4 times as much for a DHE Parker 20 in comparable condition, in today's market, than I did for the Sauer.
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