I hope I have the gist of the Kirner gunmaking story correct below.

The Jozsef Kirner we've come to chase is actually a Junior to his father, Jozsef Kirner, Senior, and the grandson of Gyrgy Kirner, who as born in Bavaria in 1784 and hung out the Kirner Bchsenmacher/Gunsmith shop shingle in 1808 in Pest. It seems there may be some controversy/drama surrounding his national identity? More than likely Jozsef Kirner senior was born about the time Gyrgy hung out his shingle and by circa 1832, Jozsef Kirner, Senior, had his gunsmith's sheepskin. He continued in the craft till 1861, or possibly a bit later close upon 1863/1864 when the management transitioned to Jozsef Kirner, Junior. It would seem that Jozsef Kirner, Senior was the driving force in perfecting the Lefaucheux platform for their sporting weapons. Jozsef Kirner, Junior, was born on November 19th, 1838 in Pest. In 1852, at 14 years of age which I think was typical, he entered the apprentice program. A fella by the name of Emanuel Gyula Bibanco, if I have the name sequence correct, a professional educator being Silesian by birth, started/suggested/implemented a trade or vocation program in the late 1820s wherein a 4 hour course was conducted on Sunday and referred to as Sunday School, seemly the same Sunday School for German craftsmen that Mr. Dietrich Apel has previously described. This school set the stage for the apprentice to gain the tools needed to make it in the world. By 1830 course hours were set as well as the daily curriculum, which was German language based and included a sampling of legal fundamentals as well as basics for the trade. Seems there was an option for a night class or something of the like. In 1841 Emanuel Gyula Bibanco went to his reward and Antal Hampel became principal, where he remained in this position until 1869. During this time mirror institutions were established at Cluj, Gyor, Pecs, Sibiu & Timisoara, all which I think to be in Romania. At this point I bet you are wondering why in the world I'm on this tangent. Jozsef Kirner was a student of Anta Hampel, under whom he completed his studies in 1856 when he was released and began his walkabout journeyman program. Jozsef Kirner travelled to Austria, Belgium, France and England to absorb the latest advances in gunmaking technology before getting his gunmaking sheepskin in 1864. Jozsef either attended, competed or both at the 1862 Hunting Expo in London. But the best I can tell is that Jozsef Kirner, Senior, expired in 1869 and Jozsef, Jr. continued to supply the Hungarian Court( czimet kapta???). In 1867 that the Austrian and Hungarian were consumed with brotherly love and the Austro-Hungarian Empire commenced. The Hungarians used the term king but never emperor. In 1871 Jozsef Kirner received a silver metal at the Vienna World Exhibition, the Ordine della Corona d'Italia from the King of Italy and the Golden Cross of Merit with Crown from the cat in Vienna. I'm not sure when the Kirner's were dubbed as suppliers to the Hungarian court, but it may have been at this time. I believe it was 1873 that offically that Buda & Pest were combined so prior to this date his city would have been Pest.

There's more of course.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse