doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com What's the story behind the 3 1/2" 10 gauge?

Does anyone know why the Western Cartridge Company came up with the 3 1/2" 10 gauge loaded with 2 oz. of shot?

I know about the relationship with Ithaca, but I always thought the shell came before the gun.

Was Olin just looking for an edge?

Thanks

OWD

Researcher will chime in with all the history and details, as my memory is a bit fuzzy; but as I recall, the purpose of the 3 1/2" 10-bore shell was to duplicate the payload of the outlawed 8-bore. I've got a few neat old roll-crimped Remington 8-bore shells, some 3 1/4" and some 3 1/2" in length (that would be the fired length). The longer shells have only a shot size stamped on the over-shot wad; but the over-shot wad on the shorter cases note the payload as 1 3/4 oz; so I assume the longer cases must carry a 2 ounce payload, which would indeed match the payload of a vintage 3 1/2" 10-bore mag. But nowadays, I see 3 1/2" 12-bore payloads at 2 1/4 ounce; so in my convoluted opinion, politicians, to be consistent, should either outlaw all 3 1/2" 10 and 12-bore loads that duplicate and/or exceed the outlawed 8-bore, or legalize/legitimize the old 8-bore. But then, in this real world, I do not expect common sense or consistency from politicians.

FYI- I have a J&W TOlley 10 ga circa 1885 and the barrels are stamped
3 1/2 inch Paper. ??

OWD, the shell did come before the gun. I can't tell you the reason behind this particular brain child of Olin's, but he did have the idea for the load before contacting Lou Smith at Ithaca to build the gun to handle it. I've always found it interesting, given the Model 21's reputation for strength, that Olin didn't use the 21 as a platform. But Ithaca's NID was probably a good choice.

Re the original payload for the 10ga mag . . . as of 1940, both Super-X and Remington Nitro Express shells were available with 2 ounces of shot.

I think it was just the natural evolution of things. Western Cartridge Co. had led the way in introducing progressive burning smokeless powder to shotgun shells with the 1922 introduction of their Super-X loads in 2 3/4 inch 12- and 20-gauge Field shells.



The next year they added a 16-gauge Super-X load in their 2 9/16 inch Field shell, and a bit later the 12-gauge 3-inch Super-X load put up in their Record shell.



By 1926, Western had added the .410-bore Super-X load and had breathed new life in the moribund 10-gauge by introducing the 2 7/8 inch Super-Ten load with 1 5/8 ounces of shot, a terrific increase over the previous maximum 10-gauge loads of 4 1/4 drams of bulk smokeless powder and 1 1/4 ounces of shot or 32 grains of dense smokeless powder, such as Ballistite or Infallible, and 1 1/4 ounces of shot!! By this time only Parker Bros. and Ithaca Gun Co. were offering 10-gauge guns in North America. About 1928, Western Cartridge Co. introduced their copper plated Lubaloy shot. The Lubaloy Super-X loads were all put up in their high brass Record shell. Also about that time they added the seal-tite wads for which they held a couple of patents. By early 1931, Western added their Super-X 28-gauge shell with 3/4 ounce of shot, put up in their 2 7/8 inch Field shell. In the first printing of their 1932 catalogue, Ithaca Gun Co. again listed 28-gauge
doubles, which had been dropped from their offerings with the introduction of the NID and the .410-bore in 1926.



So, I would say that the introduction of the Magnum-Ten in the 3 1/2 inch case, was just the next step in evolution. The first listing I have for the Magnum-Ten shell is in the April 1, 1932, Western Ammunition for Rifle, Revolver and Shotgun booklet. The Magnum-Ten Ithaca NID double appears in the second printing of the 1932 Ithaca Gun Co. catalogue. One would assume that this project with Ithaca was in the works before the Olins rescued Winchester out of receivership.

Evolution continued. By late 1933, the 3-inch .410-bore shell was introduced along with the Winchester Model 42 pump gun. In 1935 the 12-gauge 3-inch Magnum shell with 1 5/8 ounces of shot was introduced along with the Winchester Model 12 Heavy Duck gun. During the mid-1930s Western's Super-X evolved from being a load put up in either their Field or Record shell to being a Super-X shell. Though, the 3-inch 12-gauges and all the Lubaloy loads continued in the Record case up to at least WW-II.

My understanding is Ithaca built just over 1000 10ga magnum NID's, Parker built a very small number of 3 1/2 10ga guns. What other American manufacturers built guns chambered for the 3.5" 10 gauge?

Sort of off topic but not quite. IIRC the 3 1/2 in 12ga. came about because Ca. banned 10 ga. when steel came out so Marlin put a 10 ga. barrel on a 12 ga. gun and everyone upped the payload to 1 3/4 oz. with big steel shot to get pellet count and pattern density back up.

I have one of the 3 1/2 in. 10 ga. Ithaca NIDs and it will reliabily kill geese and cranes with bismuth or nice shot (2's) to 75-80 yds. If I am on that day.

Magnum frame NID Ithacas run from serial number 500000 made for Capt. (Major) Chas. Askins (later made famous by Elmer Keith) to 501011. The published listings Ithaca put out back in the 1960s shows --

Magnum-Ten

Field -- 574
No. 1 -- 58
No. 2 -- 164
No. 3 -- 24
No. 4 -- 56
No. 5 -- 10
No. 7 -- 1
total -- 887

Magnum-Twelve

Field -- 37
No. 1 --
No. 2 -- 24
No. 3 --
No. 4 -- 14
No. 5 -- 9
No. 7 -- 2
Sousa -- 1
Total -- 87

Leaving 38 serial numbers unaccounted for. One being this No. 1E Magnum-Twelve #500155 --



Very likely one needant remove one's socks to count the number of rightious Magnum-Ten Parker Bros. doubles built.

So after WWII was the next American built 10ga 3 1/2" gun the Ithaca Mag 10 autoloader or was it the H&R single barrel?

Wonder why that 3 1/2" 10 ga. H & R single barrel never really caught on?

SRH