doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com LC Smith 4E 20 gauge

Alooooot of speculation from a couple of poor pictures. But that is why most of us come here...the knowledge base here is second to none. The details that are picked apart make all of us better buyers/sellers/collectors in the end.

I am hopeful that the gun checks out but if not, at least another fake will have been weeded out. It will be interesting to see where the research will lead...

A good friend of mine who is an FFL is taking 9 guns of mine to a gun show this weekend. They are all what I would call either culls or ones that, though nice, can be replaced in 15 minutes on GunBroker or Guns International. I wanted to generate some cash anyway so who knows, I may be in a position to make an offer that would take into account that the barrels may be replacements. (Calling it a forgery or a fake seems harsh to me).

I like to slow down when things get complicated. Plus I have to take my daughter back to college Saturday so nothing is gonna happen fast. I might get to look at it over the holiday weekend but I am going to Delaware for opening day of dove season so maybe not.

I want to thank everyone again for all the knowledge and information that they have shared with me. It will be interesting to see how this all turns out.

The suspense was taking its toll on me. I left work and raced 45 minutes each way to take some pitures at a pre arranged spot.

It looks better than I remembered but they still might be replacement barrels, maybe somebody way more qualified than me can throw in their opinion. Most of what looked like gaps turned out to be poor photo shading. There are small cracks though behind the sideplates.

This thing is a wand in the hands.






















[img]http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj304/romac2/LC%20Smith/044.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj304/romac2/LC%20Smith/039.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj304/romac2/LC%20Smith/031.jpg[/img]

The forend oversize wood and rectangular roller latching system appears to be of the later and last version that was manufactured (1940's style) and most likely a replacement. Banjo style roller latch plate would have been original for that time frame. Serial number 6428 shows 1911 in the book.

Pistol grip cap is 1940's style and a replacement for sure.

Case colors appear to be a re-case/refinish to me, trigger guard refinish as well.

Wood appears to have been refinished at some time.

The barrels have been discussed in prior posts by many. They are replacement barrels IMO.

Cracks behind the lock plates are common on many LC's, owner induced by frequent use of the wrong ammunition usually does it.

Just my opinion.

Nice pictures..

At a minimum,,and this is just my opinion just like anyone elses,,,
>
Refinished case colors on frame, forend, toplever.
Refinished trigger guard blue
TG engraving looks lightly polished over to brighten polish up,,even then the 'blue' isn't right for the gun. Of course it could just be the picture.
Refinished wood w/ recut checkering
Wrong FE for the gun I think (re#'d if it is)

BBl set from another gun,, that had a flat rib to begin with. (Maybe the original was blown, pitted,,whatever)
Top rib marks were not of the correct type for the 4, so they were filed off/removed. New markings and top rib border engraving added. The area in front of the gold bar is obviously (to me) been hand stamped enhanced in an attempt to mimic the original LCS fine dot pattern.

I'd guess it could have been damaged when a not so careful workperson removed the original marks.
But looking at the photo of it http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj304/romac2/LC%20Smith/039.jpg
notice the shadow along the top edge of the top rib it casts onto the right tube.
The shadow shows that the top rib was purposely filed down at a slope beginning at the hand matted area then down slightly to hit the receiver breech.
The only thing the 'craftsperson' could do then was an attempt to touch up the matting ahead of the gold bar by hand.

The bbl lug (that shows through the frame on the bottom) doesn't fit the frame very well in the pic I see of it. The lug itself is rounded over on it's edges, then engraved. It just has that look of coming from a worn and used set of bbls, having been polished and squared up as best can be, cut and blued.

**added: I had originaly thought perhaps a half sole job had been done on a replacement bbl to add the needed look of the longer rear rib portion.
Something that's done to use a lowe grade bbl on a high(er grade LCS where the longer rear rib portion is needed.

I can't see that it's been done in any of the new pics. If they did, it hid well,, and they put in a false splice line under the new gold bar placement. The remains of the old one usually can be seen yet but takes a close look. **

The bbl 4E marks looks punched in over a weld or in the least different from the rest and not a clean mark. Something was filled in beneath it.
The NP proof marks look faint and double struck from rebound effect. Redone proof marks, poorly done or polished over originals, ,,,,tough to tell from that'd pic but they draw my attention. Maybe just the flash in the picture..

With out the gun in hand but with the major things I see wrong and just a guess from the pics,,I'd also suspect it may be a full upgrade to a 4E including changing of ser# and grade markings.
The serial number stamps themselves just look too new in style to me.
Closer examination of the marks and gun in general are needed for that of course.

That would be an interesting one to look inside of!

Alot about the gun is very new,
along with some old looking areas of the inlet edges of the wood,,and those twisted screw driver slots. I guess those show up everywhere!

Again,,just my observations..

I don't believe I'll reread the entire thread to find out whether there is a Cody or LCSCA letter.

ROMAC, There are a people that are knowledgeable in this country to evaluate your gun, one has already said what he thinks about the gun and I'm sure he will post again. The other one for sure is Buck Hamlin.

This gun was made in 1911 and sent back to the factory for either a new set of barrels with the for-end, or just the for-end sometime in the mid 1930's on, as that is the type of for-end roller release used then. As stated the barrels proof marks are faint, who knows why, but it would not be on the original barrels as this came about in the early to mid 1920's.
Removing the left lock plate should have 4E stamped inside.

Case colors to me look original, wood would be an oil finish taking as many coats as necessary that the stock finisher thought.

Since you said this gun was inherited, I would find out from the present owner, if this gun was handed down from the original owner and if they have any records of work that was done. Unfortunately, there are few to no records in the ledgers of re-work done.

Still, a very lovely gun and a very rare one.

What is the meaning of "NB" on the barrel flats? Also, I thought that area looked "soft" or worn around the edges like it needed to be filed a lot to fit the action.

Great feedback Kutter, I appreciate it.

Nitro proofed, also HAC is there also, meaning Hunter Arms Co.

The grade stamp "4E" has been overstamped atop another grade stamp that appears to be "OO". That would be the first aspect of this gun that would give me suspicion that those barrels are a replacement; as an "OO" stamp represents the lowest pre-1913 catalog grade designation for a Smith gun. This over-stamp, and the gap around the rib extension atop the standing breech would lead me to indicate those barrels are certainly a replacement; and maybe after-market. Grade 4 barrels should have Hunter's "Nitro Steel" trademark stamp just ahead of the barrel flats on each tube; and those are missing? As to the flat rib, flat ribs are most common to later vintage Smith guns, but were also fitted by the factory to earlier period guns; and when done to an early vintage gun, the gunworks used a modified or "ramped" short rib to bring/raise the eye from the lower standing breech to the higher barrel rib (the same principal Hunter used with vent rib guns). Although most of the brains here will take issue with my/observations, let me also add that I've seen many L.C. Smith guns with barrels replaced by the gunworks using a lower grade of barrel steel than was cataloged for that grade; as well as factory fitted second barrel sets using barrel tubes of lower grade. The owners elected to use that option because it was a heck of a lot cheaper to go that route (new/replacement barrels were typically priced at 50% of the retail price of that grade gun). I've also seen two examples whereby a set of Syracuse era barrels were re-used as the basis for a new Smith gun so that, other than the barrels, an entirely new gun was fabricated (one into a Grade 2E 10-bore and the other into a Grade O 10-bore). In both cases the gunworks overstamped the original Syracuse quality grade designation on the barrels with the appropriate pre-1912 grade stamp placed on the water table. So although there is a remote possibility that Hunter Arms may have done a similar barrel replacement on this gun, I don't see Hunter leaving a the ill-fitting gap we see at rib joint. Now on the other hand, if those barrels were replaced by the Marlin service department AFTER Marlin closed the gunworks, one can expect to see less than Hunter Arms quality in the repair work itself; and on the two sets of Smith barrels that I know went to/came from the Marlin service department for work, both feature a "JM" stamp in an oval on the left side of the barrel lug (this lug area not pictured). This gun is rare and a great shooter, but if I were buying the gun; I'd have to judge the gun as a shooter with aftermarket replacement barrels UNLESS the owner can show documentation that these modification were done at the gunworks.

One more thought, the forend escutcheon on this gun should be the "banjo" style; as the oval style was used on later vintage Smith guns. Also, graded later vintage small bore Smith guns fitted with splinters often featured wood a bit "proud" around the knuckle of the iron as we see with this example; while wood was fitted flush on early vintage small bores (see the DGJ article entitled The Salesman Sample). This is perhaps another indication that, if this barrel work was done at the gunworks, it was done late in production and must have also included a forearm? This gun is likely to generate more questions than answers, but those are my thoughts; and good luck. Tom

PS: Just enlarged the serial number stamp on the barrel flats; that number has also been over-stamped atop another serial number.