doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com LC Smith 4E 20 gauge

If you hit Ctrl and then + 4 to 6 times and enlarge that area of the overstamping, it looks to me that the 4E was overstamped.

Don't forget to hit Ctrl - after you are done.

I think it has been welded up and the serial number and 4E mark along with the proof marks re-struck. Heavy filing and sanding on the barrel flats etc. Bottom line is, the factory, Hunter or Marlin would not have done it in this fashion originally or on a re-barrel/re-finish, they would have used correct new tubes.

Calling a spade a spade, the gun appears to be a cobbled up fake IMO. That may be 'harsh', but so is the guy that tried to fake those barrels and change serial numbers.

Doug and Tom have brought up some valid points.
In looking closely at the bottom of the barrels, I do not see the exractor rod used on ejector guns, the one that goes in on an angle to exract hard to remove shells. These barrels look like they came from an extrator gun. Also as Tom stated, the Nitro Steel trademark should be seen on both barrels as this was the steel used for a Grade 4. In grades 4 and higher, Made to Order was also on one barrel along with Hunter Arms Co. Fulton, N.Y.

It is safe to say that the barrels are a replacement, by whom, I doubt from the factory as they would not have the over stamping on them. With this being said, the gun is now not worth $12,000 and probably less than half.
Still a great gun and would make an excellent shooter, but not a collector piece.

If I was offered this gun< I wouldn't take it for any thing more than a pittance no matter how rare it once was. For sure it isn't a collector and who wants a Smith with cracks befind the lock plates for a shooter? Some thing's up inside there for the plates to set back farr enough to get cracks started. If pressed for a number I would offer $1,500. and pass if the seller didn't accept. My opinion only.

Ok.... one more time

NOT the 1st. time this gun has been offered for sale in recent couple of years.

If you can shoot the gun for 100 rounds and it doesn't fall apart... it would make a great vintage shooter... (wear safety glasses!!)

Gun has little collector value or investment potential above 3 to 4k.

Just my opinion .... take it for what you paid !!!

Be Safe All, Jimmy

For what it is worth I am not interested in this gun with all these issues. I would rather buy something with confidence than hope it checks out. Even though this gun does feel good in the hands.

I think that is a wise decision ROMAC, that gun is certainly not of collector quality and I would not be surprised if the entire front end of this gun (barrels and forearm) have been replaced; and if so, would classify the gun for collection purposes as a "parts gun" (there's simply too many suspicious aspects of the work on this gun). One can remove the left side lock plate; and if this gun is actually an original Grade "4E", that grade assignment will be factory stamped on the frame itself in the narrow portion of lock plate cut beneath the barrel flats. If it is an original 4E, then more's the pity as to its current condition because all this discussion lead Jim Stubbendieck (keeper of our copy of the LC shipping records)to double check for 4E's shipped in 20-bore; only 14 examples were recorded as being shipped from 1907 (the first year for the production of Smith 20-bores) and the end of 1912 when the Grade 4 designation was dropped.

ROMAC, the bbs saved a potential buyer a ton of money. Lot of good , well informed, comments here.

If the Ser# is changed (on the frame,,and I don't know that it is) to make a No.4 out of a Field for example,,who ever did the 'work' most likely added a grade stamp into the lock inlet on the frame also.
Just the fact that there is one stamped there doesn't mean it's legit.

Just like a factory letter confirming a ser# shipped as a certain grade/configuration. It never says that the gun you read that number off of is THE gun they made & shipped.

As I said before,,looking inside this thing would be very interesting.
But from a few feet away the caution flags should have gone up,,and they did for a lot of folks here looking at pics.

..and how 'bout that pic of the fixed up by hand matted top rib Tom,,hungry today :>)
(Just having a little fun!,,appreciate all the info you and the others that do the real research provide.)

Brother Cutter
Not the first time, and certainly won't be the last that I've choked on crow; but please recall, as you enjoy gloating, that I prefaced all my opinions with requests to see additional pics; and further, that I described the inconsistencies I saw and advised anyone considering purchasing this gun to evaluate it as a parts gun only. It was painfully obvious from the additional pics that the fitting of this set of barrels was an after-market cobble job, that this set of barrels most likely came from a 1938 or later vintage gun with a high single-sighting plane rib, that someone had filed and tapered the short rib in an effort to fit them to the lower standing breech of the early frame, and that in doing so had marred a portion of the factory rib matting and then made a poor attempt to disguise the repair. You, as an engraver, immediately spotted that issue in spite of the very limited initial photos; and I tip my hat to you in recognition.
As to the frame stamp, I've seen many things faked on Smith guns; but never the frame stamp. But even if it were faked, we have the shipping records for this gun which would clearly verify the vital basics of the gun as to grade, the auto ejector option, original barrel length, and bore size; so if someone were astute enough to attempt to fake the grade stamp on the frame of this gun, he would still be unable to alter/fake those original shipping ledger records. As to your comment regarding getting a legit serial number, then using that number on a field grade to fake a higher grade, yes that is certainly possible. But given all the serial numbered parts inside a Smith gun, combined with the additional internal finish work given higher grade Smith guns; I think that scenario is a stretch in this instance given the crude manner in which those numbers on the barrels of this gun were altered; don't you? And now that I've publicly eaten my crow, let me say that I continue to stand by my comments on this gun, and Smith guns in general; and further, will continue my quest to find odd and usual Smith related guns and artifacts (as was the case this week), and which information I hope to eventually publish in the DGJ so that it can be shared with all who are interested.