doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com W. Richards Marked Shotgun, trying to identify age

Would like to get as much information as possible about this odd shotgun, marked W. Richards, I'm not too familiar with English double guns. Shotgun is a side by side with side hammers, right barrel marked 17.2 with very small np. Left barrel marked E/LG, small marking under LG possibly a star or crown all in an oval; also has an S with another illegible star or crown, and a fancy cursive L similar to the symbol for pounds sterling. DD on barrel lug. Barrel rib marked laminated steel. Breech release lever swings out to open action, secondary metal lever releases barrel from receiver. These levers close to form the forearm, instead of traditional wood. Gun appears to be well made but far from any high end piece. Read another post about Belgium knockoffs and different manufacturers, just trying to find the true manufacturer and approximate age. Also have general photos I can post if needed, markings are too small to show.

The proof marks you describe would seem to be Belgian marks so it could be difficult to trace the true manufacturer. It may be possible to date the gun if any year code letters are present.
I think I have a list somewhere, if I can find it I'll post a pic or link. Hope this helps.

dude,

what you're describing is Belgium proofmarks on a gun with a lefaucheaux type break action.

Several years ago someone on this board posted a turn-of-the-last-century article about "W Richards" guns. It was so funny and true I kept it.

Here it is:

W. Richards from 121 Years Ago (m) -- Back in 1889 the magazine Forest and Stream was doing a series of pattern and penetration tests of various shotguns available to the American shooting public in each issue. For the September 26 issue they decided to take a break from the Greener, Scott, L.C. Smith, Winchester Model 1887, Colt, Remington, etc., and test H & D Folsom's cheapest doubles. Here is a brief quote of what they had to say --

�...but the mean grade gun of no name. "W. Richards," that nonentity in the gun trade, was stamped on the plate, but they were really only those cheap bits of ordnance which come through our custom houses, pay a duty of 40 per cent., and yet may be placed on the counters of the gun shop at $5 a piece. The Forest and Stream has already in past times expressed its opinion about these pestiferous products of the penurious population clustered on Belgian soil.�

And these are known to the older residents of this board as a
JABK - Just Another Belgium Klunker. The W. Richards markings are for the purpose of trading on the Westley Richards good reputation. And there was a reputable English maker named W. Richards.

As I recsall we used to call these guns JABC, pronunciation the same but Clunker on the spelling. To the best of my knowledge I believe the late Russ Ruple coined this phrase.

Note that Westley Richards never (I know, never say never) marked his guns other than "Westley Richards." Now, his several removed cousin (as I recall), William Richards, did, indeed, mark his guns "W. Richards." William's guns will be found with Preston or Liverpool addresses. They will be of the quality that was ordered/paid for, farmer grade BLNE to to best work SLE. Westley Richards guns have Brand Value of 3/4 of Boss-H&H-Purdey-Woodward guns and W. Richards have 1/2. The Belgian use of the "W. Richards" name must not be confused with either Westley or Williams products. The gun in question is undoubtedly a Belgian made "hardware store" gun, and a lower grade at that. Sorry, but that is the truth.

DDA

2-piper, I will defer to your spelling expertise. As I recall there were two terms similar terms: Klunker was reserved for any beat up gun not worth repairing versus Clunker which was purpose built hardly worth buying in the first place.

Thanks for the help everybody, knew it wasn't a Westley but hoped it might have been a lower grade William. And El Garro, no need to post the age markings, can pretty much narrow it down from here.

Here's what a real W. Richards of London & Liverpool gun looks like:

http://coveyandnye.com/purveyor-of-fine-...ards-best-grade

As you'll note, they are a quality English gun and impossible to mistake for Belgian hardware store guns.

Dude4570
Welcome to the forum on your FIRST and second post,
there are many W. Richards Belguim guns still around and serviceable.
While not a top of the line gun they are still fun to shoot if in good condition.
What are your plans for this gun? Target shooting, hunting, fun stuff?
I have and shoot a 16gauge W. Richards.
Thanks
Mike

p.s. I am sure you enjoyed the welcome from the others

Dude,
Skeettx is correct, I had a 12 gauge no-name Belgium made gun like the 16 gauge you have (mine didn't even say W Richards on it). I used to shoot it at local SXS events using Winchester AA Low Recoil/low noise shells. People asked what it was so often, I finally had JABC lazer engraved in big letters on the locks. Like Skeettx said, even with its humble origin it was still fun to shoot.
Steve

The posts above reminded me of something an old, sadly deceased shooting friend once said to me, I had a well used �30 Belgian boxlock , my first shotgun. I'd tidied it up, it was tight and shot well but I hankered after a fine english gun.

He said to me...

'It'll kill a rabbit just as dead as a Purdey will'

Wise words indeed.I had a lot of fun with that old gun and it put some food on the table. One misfire in all the time I had it. Someone else owns it now and it's still doing the job it was made to do.

One clarification regarding the "real McCoy" W. Richards guns. While most guns will say Liverpool, some do say London. It appears William Richards had a London address at one time and learned his trade there. This would be akin to seeing a Westley marked London (a retail outlet) when made in B'ham.

Above all, quality and proof marks together confirm a real W. Richards. The logs and the firm still exist so if in doubt, ask W. Richards if the gun is theirs.

The' new' W. Richards have a website with a lot of information and history of the original firm and are very helpfull when asked about tracing a gun from the extensive records that they have. They can supply authenticity certificates for a small price but will also help out over the phone or email.
They gave me dates of manufacturer and sale for both of their guns that I have owned which were sold from the Preston shop. Their main shop was in Liverpool but I believe they had premises in London and one in Australia too.
The original W.Richards finished trading in the 80's and the name and rights were acquired by the present firm based in York. I'm not sure how to post links but they are W. Richards. Pocklington York. On the website
They make some very nice guns too.

I have a early side lever (Left Side) 12 back action hammer gun marked W Richards with Birmingham proofs, but am under no illusions of it being the Real McCoy. It has the quality of a JABC. It doesn't have an address per se but each lockplate is marked W Richards & then the top rib is marked W Richards London Laminated Steel. Bore was proofed as a 13 but I am thinking as it was proofed prior to the in between marks it probably started life very close to a 14 with a 12 chamber. It does however also pre-date the chamber mark, so hard to say for sure what it was originally.

Pictures please

An 1886 job sheet from John P. Moore's Sons, New York lists "Clabrough's make, marked W. Richards, laminated steel barrels,..."

Skeettx: Forgive me for dredging up old posts (it was painfully slow at work today!)but I couldn't help but comment on your mention of owning and shooting a W. Richard's 16-bore. Right after the recent election, I decided that I wasn't going to leave any loose ends unaddressed concerning my personal battery of firearms and purchased a lovely little W. Richards 16 that had been sorely tempting me for something-like 6-months. It's the No. 1 gun of a pair that was made in 1906. Overall... fit, finish, and weight & balence were what finally sold me on it. With 28-inch tubes and a LOP of 14 7/8-inch, this little BLE still only tips the scales at 5LBS13, and it's comb was/is so petite that even with a very slight cast-off it still fit's me (a lefty) shockingly well. I'm really looking forward to next Fall in Minnesota to see how it does on those yummy little ruffies. From Mr. Hadoke's new book on boxlocks, I'm fairly certain that it's a product of Webley & Scott because of it's screw-grip action. But... it's easily the most petite Webly I've ever held. It's as narrow across the bar as a 2-inch twelve (which I understand to be mostly built on 20-gauge frames). Is your gun as svelte as this one?

No, my gun is old and well used, and a sweetheart to shoot
Sounds like you have a svelt lady of a gun, good on ya!!!!
Enjoy the shooting
Is she a 2 1/2" chambered gun?
Mike

She started life as one, but was reproved to 2 3/4 in the fairly recent past. Because of the light weight and her very thin wrist (a diamond at that!) I'll not use 2 3/4 unless I have no other options. I did get to use her on wild Bobwhite near Campo, Colorado this Fall and she did her part. Was hoping for some Blues as well but we're in a serious drought here. I have high hopes for next year.

i also have a sxs belgium made hammer gun marked A RICHARD [no s]it appears to be of decent quality the butt plate and grip cap
are buffalo horn all screws are timed the engraving is fine and well done on the side plates of dogs in the field at point the trigger guard is eng. with a pheasant in the field the bottom of the receiver is finely scroll engraved. the gun is belgium proofed also the stocks are of extreme nice burled english walnut. the top barrel rib is marked fine damascus belgium. not being an expert on what makes a fine gun a fine gun this one appears to be of very fine quality. the greener crossbolt is also eng. the hammers are also finely engraved. i bought the gun years ago because it appeared to be of high quality. any info. would be appreciated.

My little 16 has a horn plate on the butt as well, but she was made in Preston, not Belgium. Nigel Brown's three volume series on British Gunmakers makes the identification and dating of these W. Richards guns fairly simple. While there are certainly many decent Belgian guns out there, I'm not aware of how one goes about identifying much about them. As I tend to buy fit and quality, and not necessarily the "name", I'm not the guy to ask. Use it and enjoy it, as I do. Make the days count.