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Robert, no just a slight misread of what I meant. I was refering to a gun marked 13/1 with being out at over .729". A gun marked 12 would be .729" to .740" and out at anything over .740". A 12 bore chambered gun could be proofed as 14 bore or even 11 bore on the proof marks. The markings are to indicate what the gun measured at time of testing and would then indicate if any ammount of metal had been removed beyond the tested limits. If out of proof from its original measurments it would need re testing by the proof house and re stamping by them before it could be offered for sale here in Britan. Therefore your .732" L.C.Smith would have been stamped at 12 or .729" under the 1954 rules of proof indicating that at the time of testing it measured between .729 and .740. Lagopus.....

What lagopus said.

lagopus,
Thanks...I wasn't trying to undermine your answer...and I think I do have a better understanding based on your information...but when you say "out of proof" it overwhelmingly implies "unsafe to shoot"...perhaps you should say out of 13/1 tolerances (just like every LC Smith ever made)


OK...let's see...if the minimal safe wall thickness is .025...and IF the bore was .719 (originally) then that is .719 plus .025 x2 = .769...that's less than .770..

You can't take a barrel that has an OUTSIDE diameter of .769 and ream the INSIDE open to .770...

The point is, there is something seriously flawed in the way we read and understand the bore marking system and it's variations...

If your information is correct in all cases then these barrels would have been reamed beyond paper thin, they would be completely gone and you would have to ream another thousanth from thin air...so someting is not exactly correct in your/our interpretation of these marks, but I really appreciate your willingness to hash out the details as we go...thank you...and I'm looking forward to your next reply...

OT...this afternoon is the Rochester gun show, one of the biggest in the state...not since the 1970's have high grade guns been so available, so inexpensively, in such large numbers. The WW II guys are checking out in legions leaving their guns behind in a world that wants black plastic assault guns...this is by far the happiest gun hunting season ever...last week (Syracuse) I saw a Parry Firearms 12ga outside hammer in high condition with Ithaca NY markings, even the buttplate said Ithaca NY (not Wilkes Barre)...It was the first I've ever seen...serial 220...

If Rochester doesn't pan out, I've been offered a graded LC Smith 16ga, straight grip, single trigger, recently re-cased and re-blued by Turnbull, asking $800 ...Superposed shotguns are down to about $600 if you take time to look for the best deal...the cost of collecting double shotguns is dropping at an unpresidented rate...I recently bought a 95% Beretta Silver Snipe in 20 ga IC & M with a single trigger for the asking price of $125...last week I passed on a like new Superposed (12ga flat knob short tang) for any offer over $500

Robert where lagopus lives in proof and out of proof are big deals. The law requires any gun sold in England to be "in proof". That is, not bored out beyond a certain diameter indicated by the bore size stamped on the water table, in this case 13/1. Apparently, back in the day, an English gunsmith was likely to have a bore gauge. So he could tell if a gun had been honed out by some unscrupulous person by measuring the bore diameter. So he would look at the watertable, see it said 13/1. His book would tell him bores should be between .720 and .729. If they measured .770 he would know it had been honed out beyond .729 He wouldn't know wall thicknesses but he would know it was out of proof. Now the gun might still be safe to shoot. And the gun can be sent back to the proof house and if it passes proof it would have new marks stamped on the water table. So maybe a "12" after reproof.

It can be safe to shoot a British gun that is out of proof but I always measure wall thicknesses breech face to muzzle on any old double gun before I buy it, much less shoot it.

And .032" wouldn't be enough wall thickness at the forward end of the chambers but it is plenty of wall thickness near the muzzle.

Hope this helps.

Best,

Mike

Nothing flawed about it....only thing flawed are the barrels on this Cashmore.

Oh no...paddle faster...I hear banjos

Cute.
Robert, I went over the thread and found an important post I had missed. Your point concerning the gun being bored out for ballistic advantage is germaine and probably explains all. The 770 wadding was new to me,thanks for that.
So, the proof marks become irrelevant because the gun is made to produce income not value.
The problem here is without provenance it will take a price hit when you go to sell it.
So here's a case where proof means nothing to the man who bored it out for special use but sorta screws those that came after him

Here are a couple of Cashmores without the "billboard". The Nitro is easily recognized, but the Imperial is less so. From the make up of the Imperial, one might guess a Pigeon Gun, but it is a 6 1/2# twelve bore which I just shot in Saskatchewan.

The above passage about "long cone" is why I posted this article from the Argus 8 Jan 1889

Don't you think that comment racist Mr. Chambers...


Was yer mom's name Marilyn by chance ?