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Forums10
Topics39,496
Posts562,071
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Most Online9,918
Jul 28th, 2025
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 916 Likes: 1
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 916 Likes: 1 |
I don't know which guns use dovetail lumps, but I've seen a drawing of this that shows the lumps made from one piece of steel that's dovetailed into the insides of the barrel flats.
Jay
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,676 Likes: 180
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,676 Likes: 180 |
I guess my thing is I just don't find them even remotely handsome.... Lump this...  16 gauge WS1/WS2, 6 1/2 lbs
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 384
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 384 |
You guys knocking the Winchester Model 21 are something in my book. They are very good guns IMHO. They have chopper lump barrels which is a sign of a 'best' gun. They are very stout and well-balanced for their intended purpose. In this regard, I saw a man win over $100,000.00 shooting live birds with a Model 21. I'm pretty sure he felt he was using an excellent gun which in no way resembled a 'baseball bat". For sure, no one watching him shoot thought he was using a baseball bat! Personally, I have owned several Model 21's as well as many English guns, including 'best' sidelocks, such as Boss, Holland and Holland and Purdey shotguns. I still own some of these guns. They are all very nice, but so are the Model 21's. And, if I want to shoot high powers, I don't go English......I use a Model 21 or a Browning Superposed (another great gun, IMHO ). Model 21 Winchester shotguns are very good guns and the market generally agrees with me. Buzz, you are misreading me, I know or have been told they are very stout and I have no doubt they would serve very well on live pigeon (which we do down here in SW Spain, the weapon of choice for the pro money earners being an O/U 12 bore choked full and full with 36 gram loads, usually a Perazzi or Beretta). My point was only that unless you want to shoot duck or goose that is an awful lot of money to pay for one of those things, best, Mike
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,292
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,292 |
I'm with Mike Bailey,
I never understood the 21 thing...I'm sure they are Stout, but there are other things to consider in that price range I think.....like er, elegance & beauty?
Did they ever make a 21 with the following on the same gun....? A. Nice sleek fine Splinter Forend.....no canoes.... B. Fine double triggers......no Matador pinned single triggers.... C. Thin light weight straight grip butt stock.... D. Clean top rib, no vent or raised ribs.... E. Extractors....non ejector.... Would someone please post a picture of this model 21 equipped as above.....?.........Thanks......
Doug
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 5,021
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 5,021 |
Why all the fuss guys? Let’s call a spade a spade. According to prices at the European auctions the Model 21 is not regarded as highly as it is here in America. But, according to American auction prices the Model 21 is the double most sought after by Americans. So what we have here is a “failure to communicate” and two very different opinions on the same gun, one extremely high, the other very low.
I’m American and I love em!!!
But someone overseas will look at me and say, "why?"
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 12,743
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 12,743 |
Just a couple of comments here. Without even getting into the debates over the M21 itself, keeep in mind that high prices do not necessarily imply aany special significance to the actual value of one product over that of another. Prices on items no longer in production are driven simply by Supply & Demand. There are ""MANY"" Winchester collectors, thus Demand. That is a definite factor in their prices. I recall the statement made many times by the late Russs Rupel "Only a Collector will pay more than something is Worth".
As to bbl construction I have the following list, anyone feel free to add any I may miss;
Conventional
Dovetail
Chopperlump
Dovetail Chopperlump
Shoe
Monoblock
Not absolutely positive but I believe that a Demi-Block is another designation for a Chopperlukmp
The Winchester 21 bbls are the Dovetail Chopperlump
Miller/TN
I Didn't Say Everything I Said, Yogi Berra
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Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,028 Likes: 125
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,028 Likes: 125 |
Hi Mike Bailey. No offense taken. Doug, the reason 21's have a canoe for a forearm is because of target shooting, clearly why the ws-1 , ws-2 was made. For skeet/target shooting. It just so happens a lot of bird hunters like this configuration, but it was not the gun's original intent. Have you ever shot 100 skeet targets with a splinter forearm?? They get real hot!! I think the Model 21 is the only S xS that looks 'right' with a beaver tail forearm and a vent rib. There is a premium for these guns in the marketplace if they have a vent rib, ESP with small bores. A splinter forearm on a 21 is a detriment in terms of the market as are double triggers. It does not make much sense, but it is what it is.
Socialism is almost the worst.
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Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 14,447 Likes: 278
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 14,447 Likes: 278 |
Doug, a 21 as you describe is not that much of a rarity, although the straight grip is a bit hard to find in a double trigger, non ejector gun. It is easy enough to replace the stock or convert a canoe paddle to straight grip. I have an original gun as you describe, except with the canoe paddle stock. I find the canoe paddle to be very comfortable, so I will leave it as is. My gun is a 30" 12 gauge and seems to weigh about 7 1/4 pounds although I don't know its exact weight. I have owned two such 12 gauge guns over the years, and one 20. I paid $650 for the 20, and $1100 for one of the 12s a few years back. I paid $3000 for the latest 12 about three years ago on this site. This gun is near mint. All Model 21s are not priced unreasonably.
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