doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Question on J. Purdey Boxlock Guns

I had a chance to handle this gun yesterday. Beyond the already discovered serial number discrepancy, the wrong checkering pattern and a set of barrels that appear to be of recent (last 40 years) manufacture, it is also quite loose on face.

Although not an antique shotgun expert, I would recommend buyer beware.

I would bet that this was a double rifle in a previous life.
probably .450 or .500BPE.
The serial number should not be on the action flat, but on the grip tang.
The tang was probably changed from pistol grip to straight when the gun was rebarelled and restocked.
I need to look at my guns patent numbers, but I would venture to believe an early 1890s gun, maybe SN 13477 instead of 16477.
More to come.
WC-

That makes some sense. The serial number was etched (poorly) on the action flat, the grip tang and the barrels - all in the same hand. I didn't have another Purdey to compare, but the script on the rib was upside down from the left side of the gun. That is for a right hand shooter, holding the gun in the ready position, the Purdey name and address were upside down. Was it made for a left hander? Or is this typical of Purdey? Lots of questions with this gun...

So, my 1889 131xx Purdey (SBA) rifle has a Anson & Deeley use number of 7326, while my 1890 135xx Purdey rifle has a A&D patent use number of 9561. This gun has a use number of 11349, which can't be very much newer than my double rifles.
So at this point we know it's an original Purdey from the very early 1890s.
The 16477 is totally wrong as confirmed by the Purdey records.
It can't be proven at this stage that this gun was a DR or not, until the real Purdey # is found, possibly inside.
Best regards,
WC-

A friend of mine just bought that Purdey boxlock serial number 16477 out of Cabelas Fort Worth. He is heading to see Stephen Hutton up at Portsmouth to check it out.....the lever is loose....my first reaction was that the serial numbers were, as stated already, were etched in ...not anything like the usual workmanship....the barrels did not help as it was clear they were redone...another issue for me was that the name on the rib had a convincing address but also ended with " England".. It is a nice gun and the engraving is clearly well done as well as the J. Purdey and Sons. Engraving ...comparing it to mine .....the trade mark on the water table seems genuine as is the proofs...but I am not an expert....my other first reaction was that it appeared a legit A & D.... I compared it to the water table on a recent James Julia sale....it is a quality B and I know those are rare....the dolls head says Westley Richards all over it but I can find nowhere where WR made them for Purdey...but I know it could have been licensed to one of the named 4 or 5 Burmingham out sources for those guns...my friend contacted Purdey and got the same info which is in a Previous post above....and told where to look for it...I told him that since it appears to be restocked at some distant point in the past I was not sure what he would find and if built by a Burmingham firm it might not have any serial number....or it may well have the real Purdey number....which then begs the question.... Why the fake serial number in the first place....many questions....my research clearly indicates that Purdey would have put a serial number on those outsourced guns....if the gun changed many hands then in one of the sequences where the tang was redone...it may have simply been forgotten by one owner.....I certainly would not have just put any number on it....hope for his sake it is real and perhaps gone though numerous restorations....this is just to follow up on what you guys have posted.

Condor,
I'll be blunt:
As stated earlier, this gun was very likely an early A&D double rifle in the 1890s. I don't know what it could be called anymore...
The only thing left from Purdey is the action ( and it was outsourced to somebody else to begin with). The barrels and stock are not Purdey. Hard to call it a Purdey anymore, especially when the SN does not match.
The barrels are not Westley Richards either as they would have stamped their name on them.

The worker who rebarelled and restocked it, put (badly so)their own number on it.
Likely, you'll never know who that was.

Best regards,
WC-

WC.....it seems if you read my post you would see, I never said they were purdey barrels...and know they are not WR barrels....I said the Dolls head was a WR patent..secondly, I said basically everything you said. Also, your assuming it was a double rifle...right? Hutton , a former Churchill gunsmith should have a more accurate description...if possible. The barrels, I know we're Redon...but the rib had the Purdey engraving...I never said they were Purdey barrels....and I even pressed the question more in that the engraving maybe wrong....when Kirk Merrington rebarrelled my Westley Richards...he actually kept the original rib on the gun....but they are not now WR barrels....my post was simply a follow up....I would be very much surprised that it was a double rife...but will follow up. Both of us are heading up to see him Monday...I am bringing a Grant with Boss barrels ( confirmed by Ron Lyn at Boss), which I bought from the same Cabellas... And got the province on mine from A, G& L. My friend and neighbor is concerned....so we will do our homework... We are both members of the Northeast chapter of the Vintagers...and the Gun in question is not mine...I found this thread by doing a google search. Actually, having held the gun , the stocking is not that bad. If the receiver is not Purdey then it will go back if he chooses...if it is he will probably keep it.

Edit...that is to say...if he finds no Purdey serial number where Purdey told him to look then we still have an issue, despite the receiver being made by one of several Birmingham firms...there still should be a number somewhere at the back of the receiver. The pictures on Cabelas raised the same red flags as has been stated in other posts with me and I have told him so.... Edit...I just looked at my Rigby and the receiver is far more robust and it is a 275... I can not believe that this receiver in question can support a 450 or 500 nitro express...I never can at this point make an assumption that the restocker put the serial number on it...it could have been made by any number of previous owners...but as stated my buddy will get Huttons educated opinion...

Just a follow up...we just returned from Portsmouth and a visit with Hutton...My buddies gun has been left with him to fix the lever spring and tighten the action. Huttons opinion is that it is not a fake...in fact it is a Purdey AND the stocking is original and was not restocked. He felt the engraving was a Lewis type and that it was always a 20 gage....and never a double rife, explaining the differences in receivers and no pistol grip. The proof marks are not fake...The only mystery is the serial number , but he was only guessing that when the rebarrelling went for proofing they or someone had a need for a serial number...he took the receiver apart and we could not find any other numbers. The rebarrelling had initials of D.J.D. He could not think of anybody with those initials....on our way home he called and said he contacted another Brit gunsmith who thought the initials were of a David Dyshurst....if I have that right and could be a gunsmith who worked or works for W.W. Greener. I was wrong on the WR connection as he pointed out the difference in the dolls head in question and that of a Real WR dolls head...a detailed I missed when comparing it to my WR...he explained the outsourcing deals that were made....at this point he could not determine which Birmingham gun maker made the receiver....so with the stock and receiver....he will get back after he has time for a closer examination of the stock looking for further initials..he felt it could still be considered a Purdey after I mentioned some opinions that felt that it was not.The barrel he think was rebarrelled in the 1980's. so my friend will now contact Graham Greener and follow up on the individual to get further info....so it continues....anyway it was a great deal for $5,000.
He felt that my buddy took a risk because the serial number would have scared a lot of people off. He was right. But it has worked out for him.

Hutton Info:

Brittannia Sporting Arms, Stephen G. Hutton, Gunsmith, Formerly of E. J. Churchill, 895 Sagamore Ave., Portsmouth, NH.

My name spelling leaves much to be desired....the Name is Dryhurst....and It appears he is still at Greener...was an apprentice and has moved up...I got a copy of an email from my friend that had just gone out to Greener.....so we will exhaust that route...he said he remembers Hutton saying it was a Lucas style engraving not Lewis...but whatever....anyway he is getting the opinion in writing from Hutton and if the Dryhurst is connected will get that too.... The mystery is still the serial number but he will exhaust that too...however, I have suggested to get corroboration from other sources, and get back to Purdey with all the info he has....down the road.

Condor, Dryhurst owns/is Greener these days. Good guy, too.