doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com I found a model 12 and...

Amen to that, Brother! Mr. Thomas C. Johnson designed a true and timeless classic, indeed, the "Perfect Repeater"--

As an interesting aside but on subject, I am a big fan of the Guns and shooting online site, see http://www.chuckhawks.com/index2.guns.htm

Apart from being impartial and saying something is cr*p when it is, unlike 90% of magazines or press, they have a great shotgun section. I recently emailed the owner and asked why there was no review on the Model 12. He replied he would do one but then said his cousins and another friend both owned them but they were the hardest kicking 20 bores he had ever shot. this intrigued me. I bought a Rem 870 wingmaster new a couple of years ago over here for saltwater wildfowling. It has a ridiculous LOP of 13 1/2", I put a slip on Pachmeyer onto it to take it a slightly better 14 1/2". The old 1948 Model 12 I have has an LOP to mid of 14 3/4" and doesn�t kick me at all. I wonder if the stock dimensions changed over the years or with guage ?? The Model 12 review can be found at http://www.chuckhawks.com/winchester_model_12.htm. Since it is a new review you may have to subscribe to the site but in my opinion it is worth every penny (25 bucks a year from memory). Obviously I have no connection with said site other than being a happy viewer, best, Mike

So, I have Mr. Thomas C. Johnson to thank for these guns? I'm a doublegun guy, have been for years, but I appreciate anything that is well made. These guns have great weight and balance (at least certainly in the nickel-steel sub-gauges)and they handle and carry beautifully. They are often overlooked in the racks of the local gunshops, and their prices tend to reflect that. There are times when a third shot is a very useful thing, and when the weather is abysmal they are a very nice option to have on hand.

Mike, this Mr. Hawks isn't 'Worthy' enough to review the Model 12. But then again no one is.

Back in the 90's the American Rifleman did some reviews on some of the 'Best' markers in the world, James Purdey, Holland & Holland. Lebeau Courally, this is how their review went; Checkering is perfect, wood to metal fit is perfect, functioning is perfect, blueing is perfect, engaving is perfect. And on and on and on, pretty boring stuff. They soon lost interest in their review of these gunmakers and moved on.

I would suggest you get the George Madis book on the Model 12- good background on Mr. Thomas C. Johnson and good details on the Model 12- as far as the small gauges are concerned and nickle steel-- IMO-- take a 1921 M12 20 gauge 28" plain nickle steel barrel field grade- unaltered from factory specs-- then take a 1932 M12 20 gauge 28" plain barreled in Winchester Proof Steel, again, as from the factory- have some one blindfold you, and let you mount, swing and then dry fire and cycle the action all you want-- I'll bet you a flat of 20 gauge Big Box store loads you can't tell the difference. I have never encountered a M12 20 gauge made from 1925 to about 1929 with the WRA Stainless Steel barrel, but I would be willing to state that you wouldn't know that blindfolded either- All gun barrel steels have nickle and chromium alloys, for that matter, so does stainless steel-- carbon and manganese and silicone % contents are what constitute the minute differences. Had not WRA "dilly-dallied" for 4 years with the stainless shotgun barrels (and also offered on their M54 BA CF rifle series) and their ill-advised ads for-- "Don't worry if you come in from the rain-you can put off cleaning your Winchester with a stainless barrel until later"" what a marketing blunder- my guess is they would have still developed Winchester Proof Steel (AISI 4140) as they were working on the great and darn near indestructible Model 21 double gun at that same time frame--why then, I would ask, in retrospect, would WRA use the WPS just for the new kid on their block- the M21?? and not also use it for the M12, M54 and later the "Rifleman's Rifle- the Model 70- as well as all the other rifles and shotguns they were producing-

Page 54, Stephen Bodio's Good Guns, 1st Ed., 1986:
"Hear the ultra-respectable Geoffrey Boothroyd, gun columnist fo the English Shooting Times and Country magazine, a man whose taste is so refined he shoots a Dickson round action: 'The Winchester Model 12, for example, cannot be faulted in its styling whereas the much vaunted Winchester Model 21 double is, in my eyes, truly ugly, regardless of how much gold inlay, engraving and fancy wood is used for the stock.'" (I am only the messenger. I will accept as a charitable donation any grade M21, condition or gauge. I have my M12s, thank you. Gil)

I have heard about the Madis book and I own the other. I will track down the Madis book to be able to converse a bit more intelligently on this subject matter. I am fairly confident that Mr. Fox is right, a blindfolded comparison between nickel steel guns and Proof Steel would likely only confuse me further. What I can say is that when I was looking for the lightest Model 12 I could find, the nickel steel guns being advertised were noticeably lighter (by several ounces). Now, as it has been pointed out earlier on this post, the early guns very likely had less-dense wood and perhaps shorter dimensions. This would affect overall wight and perhaps handling as well. Winchester has always been famous for building very durable products out of the finest steels available and I'm sure Proof Steel only contributed to that very fine reputation.

Very sage observations, Sir. The first series Model 1912 and Model 12 shotguns had a shorter 14 ring corncob forearm, and as WW1 and the Springfield 1903 rifle was made for the "Average" man- 5 ft. 9" and 160 lbs-LOP on the earlier guns also meant less weight in the butt stock as well-less weight in hand-No American gun maker, IMO- had done more with basic metallurgy and various means of both heat treatment and blueing that WRA did--the main reason the Model 12 was dropped from the product line in 1963- and replaced by the POS model 1200 pumpgun was not so much mfg. costs as lesser demand- I'll wager that from 1914 to 1963--most of the Model 12's sold were 12 gauge field grade guns, 28" or 30" and either Full or Mod- and they never wore out if given reasonable care, and were passed down from one generation to the next-- The Model 12 Pigeon grade Trap, Skeet,and 28 gauge skeet guns- were losing their favored positions (1930's to 1950's) on the Trap and Skeet fields in favor of the Browning O/U and the Japanese Winchester clones- the 101-- now we have SC, choke tubes, etc. I have always wanted to shoot high driven pheasants in Europe- with my "pet" Model 12- 30" 12 Full solid rib Tournament Grade- with the magazine plugged to 3- against some Duke of Earl with his matched pair of British bests and with the loader, 4 shots to my three- most birds killed for the fewest number of shells used wins--Bless Limey engineer and gun writer Gough Thomas- he knew what a well-used Model 12 could do in the hands of an experienced wingshot--

Unfortunately Run with the Fox you will not be allowed to take your model 12 to shoot driven pheasant in the UK as I found out recently. You can shoot vermin with it, rabbit, pigeon etc but not game since it has a magazine capacity of more than 2 shots (it might be 3), Thus I can�t take my newly aquired 1948 Model 12 to England to shoot pheasant unless it is welded up (no plugs allowed). Who thought up that regulation ????????? best in a mad world, Mike