As an interesting aside but on subject, I am a big fan of the Guns and shooting online site, see http://www.chuckhawks.com/index2.guns.htm

Apart from being impartial and saying something is cr*p when it is, unlike 90% of magazines or press, they have a great shotgun section. I recently emailed the owner and asked why there was no review on the Model 12. He replied he would do one but then said his cousins and another friend both owned them but they were the hardest kicking 20 bores he had ever shot. this intrigued me. I bought a Rem 870 wingmaster new a couple of years ago over here for saltwater wildfowling. It has a ridiculous LOP of 13 1/2", I put a slip on Pachmeyer onto it to take it a slightly better 14 1/2". The old 1948 Model 12 I have has an LOP to mid of 14 3/4" and doesn´t kick me at all. I wonder if the stock dimensions changed over the years or with guage ?? The Model 12 review can be found at http://www.chuckhawks.com/winchester_model_12.htm. Since it is a new review you may have to subscribe to the site but in my opinion it is worth every penny (25 bucks a year from memory). Obviously I have no connection with said site other than being a happy viewer, best, Mike