doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Lefaucheux Double in 8mm lebel - Leopold Bernard

Looking closer at my WWI bullets, they have a groove for crimping the case. In front of the groove towards the tip, the diameter is 8.26 to 8.3mm (0.326), but in the back (i.e within the case)the diameter is only 8.15 (0.321). This probably means that a 8.3mm cylindrical bullet might not chamber.The bullets are ogival both ways, and do not have a flat bearing surface. Pictures are on the way.
Of course those are the D bullets, and the M bullet might have been quite different.
Best regards,
WC-

here is a quote from another forum which sheds a lot of light on this issue. Many thanks to DocAV from Australia.
The "balle M" was Pb with 5% Sb jacketed was Maillechort, a kind of Brass.
The Balle D is solid brass 90%Cu 10%Zn.

It seems like a conventional flat base 15 gram .323 bullet is the way to go after all...It's much simpler and cheaper as well. Velocity should be right around 2080fps (632m/s).

Quote
.......
Again, confusion about European "8" mm bore/groove relationships.

back in the 1880s, the design of both jacketed bullets and use of smokeless powders was at a critical prototype stage. many nations had serious research going on into the relationship. Things like quality of barrel steel (made for Black powder and lead only bullets) what materials to use for bullet jackets, how hard to amke the lead core, how much friction to allow between jacket and bore, etc, how much allowance for Bore fouling, and so on.

Most of the nations using a Nominal "8"mm actually had a .315 inch (===8.0mm) Bore. Rifling depth was another matter, depending on the Bullet type. Most nations, (France, Austro-Hungary, Portugal) used the Swiss developed "Deep rifling/undersized cylindrical bullet" relationship, allowing the upset of the open base of the Bullet by the intense pressure of smokeless powder to obturate the bore, whilst the greater part of the cylindrical bullet jacket just barely engaged the rifling, reducing the Wear and friction of the lands by the (mostly steel) jackets. Nickel or Curponickel plating of the jackets tendedto rub off (metal fouling) and fill up the generous grooves, to be removed by vigourous brushing after use.

So the "8mm" bullets used in the Lebel Mannlicher, and other rifles
had a .323-326 diameter bullet, in a .315 Bore with .326-329 diameter bores, depending on national requirements.

By 1898, the French had adopted both a clip magazine fed carbine/short rifle (the M1890/1892) and a MachineGun (Hotchkiss M1897), which did not require a cylindrical bullet (the lebel was atube loader, and was, de riguer, a Flat point bullet user at that time ( "Balle M").
Desaleux, to the STA, designed a spirepont Boattail bullet of "bronze"( actually 90/10 Gilding metal) which was machine turned from rod. This the the famous "Balle D" which served from 1898 through to WW II; ( even if partly supplanted by"Balle N" from 1932 onwards)
Being a "Boat tail", it could NOT obturate by "Upset" so the diameter foward of the crimping cannelure was upped to .326 ( French groove diameter) a bit like an artillery shelldriving band.
Due to the generousfree bore in "Balle M" chambered weapons, there was no need to relieve necks or throats to accept the slightly oversized projectile.

The use of Balle D in Lebels was solved by adding a "point lodgement Groove" in the base of the cartridge case, so that because of the double taper case geometry, it would sit "point down" in the magazine tube, and the point of the spitzer would not "slip up" into the primer cup.

In the 1930s, many nations upgraded their 1880s ammo designs to a Boat tail projectile, the major countrise being the Descendants of the Austro-Hungarian Empire and other users of Mannlicher rifles.
The Austrians, mindfull, in part , of the boattail problem with "bore upset", went straight to a .329 diameter Boat tail, so as to completely obturate their .315/.329 M95 bores (the "S" cartridge, ( 8x56R) or "M30 8mm "S"); Hungary followed closely (31M) and Bulgaria soon after ( 1936, "8mm S Mannlichera").
The French in the late 20s early 30s, were upgrading their armoury, and saw these Austrian developments, and developed a 230 grain FMJBT with lead core; different from the earlier balle D, this could not be "turned" with a driving banddiameter in front of the Crimping groove, so the major diameter was placed behind the groove ( by Bullet manufacture/Swaging), resulting an a larger Outside neck diameter. As this could cause increased pressures in Older "Lebel"Rifles, the chambers were neck relieved "N Chambered" to allow for this extra diameter.

Anyway, today for a serious Milsurp collector/Shooter, this is a Moot Point, as there is virtually No shootable "N" Ball ammo about in the world, Most being Hotchkiss strip packed, with dead primers.
If one is keen enough to replace the Special double cup berdan primers with new, Noncorrosive, single cup modern .250 berdan primers, and re-assemble the "balle N" Loading, then I would say, yes by all means. Otherwise, handloading using .348 W@inchester reformed cases, one uses Flat base FMJs to obturate well, or cast lead. Remember, Lebels are Over 100 years Old, Berthiers in their 80s and 90s, And as For Hotchkisses, how many have (NFA approved) rock and rolling Hotchkisses out there?

Hope this short quasi scientific dissertation helps people understand the intricacies of European ammo and its relationship to the rifles it can be fired in.

Regards, Doc AV
AV Ballistics
...............
End quote

Sporting rifles in that calibre are quite scarce on account of a strange French law that prohibits ownership of Military calibre rifles. So don't try going there with your .308 or .223 plus a host of others. Most countries when they adopt a military round it also becomes a popular sporting round too as in the case of the .303 7x57mm., 6.5x55 and 8x57mm. not so with the 8mm. Lebel. I can't say that I have ever come across a commercially loaded Lebel round only the standard military copper bullet ball round. Interesting rifle and should be o.k. for most deer species. Lagopus.....

Interesting discussion. I think I have learned a lot of things about doubles over the years, but WildCattle and Lagopus remind me that I don't know so very much. Good posts.

WildCattle,
Thanks for the quote,very interesting.BTW,new Lebel brass is avaliable now, so using 348 is no longer necessary( lebel brass is great for 12.7x44R and 10.4x38R CF conversions).
Mike

Sure, I got some from Graf, I believe they are made by Prvi.
Looks OK, at least before firing, which I have not done yet...
It's funny to see that the brass bullet was invented in the 1880s, and used by the gazillions in WWI.
All that much before Barnes was born.
The "balle D" bearing surface is very short, in order to reduce pressure, akin to a banded bullet.
Very few inventions are not reinventions....

As for the military cartridge ban in France, I believe that this happened at the end of WWII, due to the ubiquity of military weapons available at the end of the German debacle, and possible Communist uprising.
I am pretty sure that Manufrance was selling rifles in .303BR and 8 Lebel between the wars. The truth is that there was little big game in France at that time, thereby little use for rifles, when the common shotgun was usable with buckshot on the occasional wild boar. Rifles were therefore uncommon except for colony usage and those typically did not survive that very hard life.
Best regards,
WC-

I was wrong (again...). The prohibition of 1st category weapons (military)came on 4/18/1939, just before the war!
This rule has been transmogrified along the years but still exists today.
It also looks like, due to the Vienna Protocol, anything made before 12/31/1899 are classified antiques and not subject to regulation, sort of like in the US. Not being a lawyer, I don't know for sure how that works. Could be useful for importing/exporting weapons though.
Best regards,
WC-

Remington loaded the Lebel with a 170 grain JSP bullet (.322") for many years. It may have come about after the French refused to take possession of all the Model 1907/15 rifles that Remington made, which were then sold publicly. I have one that was very nicely made into a carbine. They were of top notch quality.

In order to protect my new acquisition, I purchased a vintage leather hard case from England on Monday. Top 2 pictures show it as I received it today. The bottom picture shows it after some clean-up and with a few completed internal modifications to fit the Lefaucheux with its attached forend.

Now all I need is some good weather to get out and try it.

Not to derail the thread but concentrating on Lefaucheux and WC's colonial comment, I thought the advertising atop the tubes of this muzzle-loader interesting along with something akin to "monte par le Neveu le Kehlner a Prague" on the locks. Difficult to discern.


Percussion with "monte par le Neveu le Kehlner a Prague"
Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse