doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Sidelocks vs Boxlocks

Ted, that may be the story to you, but you're not a gunsmith. "The average gunsmith" is the wrong guy to work on ANY decent double, BL or SL. Well, maybe trust your 311 to him . . . but for the most part, not even a Sterlingworth, Elsie or Ithaca Field Grade, or Parker Trojan. No thanks. And a decent doublegun smith will work on any of them. If the sidelock is of the hand detachable variety, very easy to work on the guts of a sidelock--much easier than on any boxlock. You don't need to fool with a single screw. Stock replacement . . . yes, you have a good point there. The sideplates . . . well, they do leave room for more engraving than on a boxlock, and hand engraving costs $. Francotte, to name one, certainly did some great work on those false sideplates, and a lot of folks think it's worth the money.

And although the niche market for sxs is fairly narrow, it's also quite deep. That is, most of us own several. And if you compare, for example, original prices for American classic field grade guns to the best American classic pumps (for example), you'll find that it's the pumps that are underpriced--by a long ways!--not the sxs. From my 1936 A&F catalog, arguably the 2 best pumps on the market (Win 12 and Rem 31) sold for $39.50. Fox SW, Ithaca and LC Field Grades all sold for within a few pennies, one way or the other, of $43. So something less than a 10% edge to the doubles. Comparing guns in similar condition today, and sticking to 12's, you'll likely pay at least twice as much for one of those American doubles.

If you're running the numbers, it might matter how many of one or the other was originally available, and how many remain today.

Larry, you are confused about this-a removable sidelock double might be easier to DIAGNOIS trouble on-it isn't and won't be easier to fix than a boxlock. No way.
And, I'm sorry to break this to you, but, if you have trouble with a detachable sidelock gun, you will have to use something to get the screws out-they don't fix themselves because you removed the sidelock and looked at it.
You understand that there are screws (pins) in a sidelock, right Larry? Usually its just OWDs that I have to explain this stuff to. You might be surprised how much actual time I've spent repairing decent double guns, Larry, especially sick Darnes when I was the only parts source, let's see, in the western hemisphere.
There is no mystery to fixing a boxlock, one does need a few boxlock specialized tools, but, the parts are fewer, and easier to fit and regulate. That, in a nutshell, is why a boxlock is cheaper to begin with, cheaper to fix, and cheaper to maintain than a sidelock.
Pumps being cheaper than good doubles doesn't really surprise me, but, I'm happier that they are. They also will put up with more abuse and use than the doubles they competed against, and a gas station mechanic (as opposed to a good gunsmith-I've fixed plenty of those things, too) can usually get them running again. So, Grandpa actually did get his money's worth out of that 31 or model 12 or whatever, if you really think about it.

Best,
Ted

hello all,
with reference to the original question of the first post i shall bow to the knowledge,experience and extensive testing of burrard.ie sidelock is superior.
however, my personal preference (not based on supposed superiority or otherwise)is for the boxlock,from the delightful harkoms to the "ubiquitous a&w screwgrip"
cheers
mrwmartin

I agree that a true high quality of either the BLE or SLE is better than a poor quality one. The best esample of either beats a poor example of it opposite.

That said it is possible to buy a high quality BLE for less than a high quality SLE.

If price is the criteria then the box lock wins, then again if price is the criteria then a repeater Auto or Pump wins. While price is a factor, there is more to it than that.

There is functionality, appearance, and the intangibles of grace.

I see best guns as more than tools. I believe while they are tools in part, they are works of art.

Hmm, but look at the numbers, for every one Model 31 Remington managed to sell Winchester sold 3 Model 12s. Nothing could compete against the Model 12 while it was being built, only when Remington went cheapo did they finally get an edge. But, you have to give credit to Remington because they were smarter then all the rest of the industry (Ithaca included with their Model 37) figuring out that we don't really need a hand built pump!!!
Oh and since they did away with those beautiful muzzleloading shotguns of everlasting fame and went with those dirty stinkin lousy breechloaders I like boxlocks and sidelocks equally!!

The Winchester had been in production for two DECADES before the model 31 was released. The 31 was also released into the fury of the most profound economic meltdown ever recorded, a meltdown extended a decade longer than it should have been by the economic policies of FDR.
The 31, which is pretty much a side ejecting model 17, lives on in the sale of every single Mossberg 500, 585, and others, to this day, which are pretty close copies of the 31, with a few minor differences.
The model 12, doesn't.
I don't need another pump, but, I'll trade anyone interested my first year model 12 20 gauge for a similar condition 16 or 20 gauge model 31.
The Remington is a better gun.
The Ithacas are still pretty much hand fitted to this day, by the way. Lots of nicely made and finished parts inside them.

Best,
Ted

I'd like to address one point from above and, hopefully, without offending anyone.

Handling qualities of any gun, be it SLE, SLNE, BLE, BLNE, pump, auto, etc. are a function of the individual gun. They (weight, teeter-totter balance, and swing efforts) are to handling as stock dimensions are to fit. No gun can be imbued with a magic set of handling dimensions that make it superior in handling for a wide range of shooters any more than one set of stock dimensions is suitable for said wide range of shooters. There are sets of dimensions for both handling and fit that will allow a wider ran range of shooters to adapt than other sets. However, each shooter needs to determine his own range of both sets. No gun, however much it may cost, will have that 'ole magic "balance" for many/most shooters. The cheapest of pumps might just posess the set of handling characteristics most suitable to you, who ever you may be.

DDA

According to military records of gun repair; the Remington 31s were repaired the least in WWII.

Darn, Ted . . . I didn't realize Darnes were sidelocks. Your gunsmithing expertise appears to exist mainly in a pretty narrow doublegun niche. If I had a sick one, I might look you up . . . but they are neither standard boxlocks nor sidelocks. So, back to the issue at hand . . . To repair a boxlock, you also have screws to remove. But you have screws to remove even to get inside and diagnose the problem to start with. So you start out ahead with the hand-detachable sidelock, then go from there.

The doubles against which the pumps competed--again, the American classic field grades--are pretty darned reliable guns. And back when both those classic pumps and classic doubles were in production, not much of a problem getting parts for either. Sure, those pumps are easier NOW, simply because--with so many of them around--more of them have been parted out. In some cases, new parts available for them (again, because of their numbers), while you might have to make a new part for a Parker or a Fox because there aren't as many parts floating around. And, because they weren't as numerous, not as likely that any company's going to go into the business of mass producing parts for them.

If someone held onto Grandpa's Fox rather than his Model 12 or 31, then he's made a good bit more profit off it, compared to what Grandpa paid for either.