doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Unidentified French/Belgian 16 GA SxS

A pre-1924 Belgian sourced boxlock with AF tubes




Stamped Iron on the standing breech


12 in a diamond; therefore, 12 bore




Henri Lebel ARQer(Arquebusier), 6, Rue Pierre Girard Paris

2 fellas or 1 fella and an address?




Then in 1946 a G. Wenzel modified the right tube at a minimum and there was a reproof in the Zella-Mehlis facility in July 1946


Encircled H on right flat

I assume G. Wenzel was a Z-M mechanic, and possibly a descendant of Johann Boppo Wenzel of Ilmenau.


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Mr Henri Lebel's address is 6, rue Pierre Girard in the 19th. It is located close to the old meat market in NE Paris.
This is *not* a trendy location, i.e. he was a low class neighborhood dealer (not that there is anything wrong with that).
The gun is from Francotte, though.
WC-

Well spotted on the Crown over AF ...WC
franc

Or at least the barrels are.

Ditto to you Larry ...it does kinda look francottey, especially the rather nice clips/fences.
Stido', do the action flats have any marks like the Crown over AF?
I think thats a rather nice looking gun,damn fine, considering the price
nice one!
franc

I hope most know that I have us on a side tangent? Note the same encircled H on the water table and I think flats of both:


Stamped Iron on standing breech


Encircled H on water table


Encircled H on left flat




http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=248351&page=1

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I am not quite sure how a gun could have a French retailer name, a Francotte barrel (at least), Belgian and German proofs and a German name on it!

One possible path is :
Made in Belgium
retailed in Paris,
confiscated by the Germans,
reproved/remarked in Germany
confiscated by a US personnel and sent to the good US of A.

Also reading the history of Z-M, it seems that the area was under Russian authority in 1946. So the proofing with a German (formerly Nazi) stamp is kind of weird.

57973 is questionable as a Francotte number. Oh and the action looks vaguely teutonic to me.

Best regards,
WC-

Ok here are the pictures of the unknown Belgian 16 GA

I don't think your hypothesis is unlikely, though the 746 German proofing date does raise a few questions that others will have to answer.

There recently was a gun for sale in a local-to-me gun store that had a similar history. It was a French-made 12 ga sxs that bore St. Etienne proofs. Then there were Suhl proof stamps and eagles, the date stamp of 741, and the SuS monogram of Sauer und Sohn stamped on both the action and the heel of the buttstock. That one sussed out to be a GI bringback that had either been confiscated (officially or unofficially) or shipped back to Germany as loot and proofed in Germany before being released into the German stream of commerce.

Explaining the Z-M 746, I'll leave to others.

Sdidomen:
Can you pleasure us with some images of the area from the flats forward to the lug and any marks on the water table.

On the sideshoot Belgian sourced French peddled sporting weapon, it was and still is in Russia, and I wonder if it was one of the ones cobbled together in the assortment for reparations. From what I've read, I think the proofhouse officials were trying to do their job possibly even without powder at one point and then with black powder only. I'm sure the Z-M facility was proofing for a time post WWII or someone with the stamps. Many may contend that Z-M was closed and didn't proof post WWII but it is just like those that contend that Suhl did not use a ledger number, when in fact from September 1923 till say April 1924 they did and the marks bear it out just like here. They have propagated an assumption that is incorrect or without fact.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse