doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com MV vs. lead

We're getting a bit off-topic, talking about retained energy and killing power at 40 yards, when the topic is lead at 20-25 yards, skeet distances.



My questions are: Are the quoted amounts of lead for a dead gun, sustained lead, or swing-through method? Would it make a difference? If so, how much? To keep it as simple as possible, let's assume we're only discussing 1150 fps.

BPGuy,

Those quoted leads are the "true" leads as determined by a little algebra.

The leads you're referring to with different shooting methods are the "perceived" leads. Very much analogous to the differences between "true" recoil and "perceived" recoil that facinates certain members no end.

The basis for discussion of these matters is that some people believe the "real" values, as arrived at with a calculator are somehow of greater interest and importance than the "perceived" values. My opinion is that ONLY the perceived values matter at all.....either the shell kicks too much and it detracts from my ability to break a target, or it doesn't. Either I gave it enough lead, too much lead or just enough. For any given task, I will always shoot the highest muzzle velocity I can without adverse "perceived" recoil.

The amount of "required lead" is how far the gun must be in front of the target when the shot leaves the muzzle. That's the mathematical fact. What you see or perceive may be something quite different, however. What it looks like to you, when you center-punch the target is what really matters, as Mike said. That's the picture you want to keep in your memory. A really fast swinger may "see" no lead at all and a shooter with a poor follow through(like me) may "see" 6-8 feet but 3-4 feet has to be there or the bird will be missed(behind, most likely).

70 yard pheasants? Yeow! If I'm shooting at a 70 yard pheasant, I want a feather-seeking missile, not a load of lead shot.

If you're shooting 2 oz of 4's--and you'd better be shooting that heavy a load if you're shooting at 70 yard birds, because that still gives you fewer pellets than in 1 1/4 oz 6's, and at 70 yards you're going to be very lucky to retain anything better than 25-30% pattern density (which might give you 80 pellets in a 30" circle)--you will have enough energy left (barely, at about 2 ft-lbs), but the problem is, with your scanty pattern density and the difficulty of centering a bird at that range, the chances of one of your 4's hitting a vital spot on a pheasant are very poor.

Smaller shot do indeed slow down quicker than larger shot, but because you've got more 6's in 1 1/4 oz of shot than you do 4's in 2 oz, and because it's a lot easier to bump up velocity on a lighter load, you can hustle that reasonable load of 6's down range fast enough that they have greater retained energy at 45 yards than does your 2 oz load of 4's at 70. And 45 yards is a relatively reasonable long shot on a pheasant, compared to 70--which is pretty much ridiculous, due to both increased aiming error and pattern dispersion.

Mr. Brown,
I sorta hate to tell this story but...
Many years ago I, my dad and two brothers hunted lots of pheasants in Idaho. Late in the season, when the fields were mostly plowed and bare, the cock birds would heard up into large groups. Not unusual to see 20-40 of them together. They would stay in the fallow fields in plain sight. They would stay about 45 or 50 yards from the road and when a car stopped they would put their heads down and run away. They knew from experience they were safe in that situation.
I have seen dozens of folks stop and try to kill these birds from their cars. Most took the first shot on the ground. Even a pattern right over the back of a bird would do nothing. And, certainly nothing after they flew. I assume most of these folks were shooting pheasant loads with 1 1/4 oz of 6s. But the birds had their backs turned and heads down and they would be running away. No way the pellets would penetrate. At the shot, they would take off but they were too far away.
We developed a technique that worked very well.
Again, in this forum, I should be embarrassed, but, I used to shoot an 1100 duck gun with 3" chamber and 30" full. And, I was young and rather aggressive in my hunting. I was also a pretty decent shot having competed for years at trapshooting.
I found that the problem was getting the birds into the air. Once in the air, they did not have all the feathers and protection they had with their back to you on the ground.
In the air a Federal Premium 3" copper plated #4 was murder. But they would only fly when shot at and would run immediately on stopping.
If you put a shot across them with the #4 on the ground it would do nothing. (It would get the flock into the air.) The only way to kill one on the ground was a head shot. Very unlikely with the 4s. For the big duck loads(prior to steel shot), they had to be in the air with their wings spread and their body vulnerable.
I found that a Remington international pigeon load with 1 1/4 oz of nickle plated 71/2s would kill one on the ground (a head shot) a little over half of the time and would put the group into the air immediately.
With the gun loaded with 3 or 4 3" Federal duck loads in the magazine (I can't remember if the gun would hold 4 3" loads or only 3.)and one Remington international pigeon load in the chamber I was more than effective.
I almost always killed two birds from the flock, and often killed three. (I won't tell if I ever killed four. That would probably have been illegal.)
I guarantee a Federal Premium 3" #4 copper plated shell in a tight full will kill pheasants with authority at 70 yards (as long as they are in the air). I paced many, many off. And, I well realized that they would fall dead well past where they were shot.
I certainly don't recommend nor would I ever again participate in that kind of hunting (killing?). But I learned alot about the power of a fast load with big shot first hand.
Best Regards, Jake

You ever pattern those loads, Jake, at a MEASURED (NOT paced) 70 yards? I have a feeling that if you did, you might not want to advertise the practice of taking 70 yard shots at pheasants--regardless of the load in question.

This is all very true. If for instance you calculate the lead required for a 20yd skeet target & come up with say 4 ft, shooters using; swing thru, constant lead or spot shooting would have three different perspectives of "Perceived Lead". The fact remains though, assuming each centered the target when the gun discharged it was in fact pointed 4 ft ahead of the target. The main problem comes in when people start "Perceiving Facts" that are a mathematical impossibility, which is in fact the "Vast Majority of Perceptions".
For instance if a swing thru shooter "perceives" his actual lead of 4ft as only one ft, & then changes to a much faster load which cuts the 4 ft by 6", & he then "Perceives" his lead as 6", he "Perceives" the faster load cut required lead in half. This of course would be no where close to an actual "Fact". The fact is of all the factors involved in his perceived lead ie personal reaction time, action time of the gun, ignition time of the shell, bbl time & time of flight of the shot, he has changed only one. In fact he would not have cut his lead by 50% but 12.5%.
Yet he may well loudly proclaim the "Fact" that the faster load cut Lead in half. He may be considered a very "Accomplished" shot & knowledgable shooter, but if a sustained lead shooter, based upon his "Perception" adopted the faster load & cut his lead of 4' in half to 2' he would have a very sudden "Slump" in which he would miss everything he shot at. "Perceptions" "Must" be individually adopted & are very seldom actualy "Factual".

Mr. Brown,
I can't say that I patterned the shells at 70 yards. And, I well understand your point about the patterns.
But, as to the pacing, I am confident of it. I was a caddie at a country club for a few years in my teens. I practiced and learned to make a one yard pace. It was required and it was important. That was many years ago. But it was contemporary with pacing off shots on birds. To this day I can pace off out to a hundred yards within about 2 yards. This I have verified many times with a modern laser rangefinder or chains or known marks on courses.
I will well agree that 70 yards or so is the maximum end of shotgun range even with large shot. And, there is no doubt that there are plenty of holes in the pattern. But I am talking about shock and killing power at range in this discussion. And big heavy shot that starts off fast WILL kill at great range. Light shot and/or slow shot will not.
Jake

Jakearoo:
Fred KImble shot ducks at 80 yds. with 1 1/2oz of big shot. This took place over 100 yrs. ago, and still much of the shotgunning wizards have not accepted this documented fact. Then came fellow Idahoan Elmer Kieth and he shot both ducks and pheasnts at 90 yards with his Ithaca 10 mag.(2 oz. #3 Shot and fast.) He wrote about this often. In the 1950s Rudy Etchen came along and he shot the ducks at 100 yds. with a Neuman 10 magnum, yes, he may have been one of the best shotgun shots in the country at the time, but none the less he did it. In the 1920s LC Smith advertised that the long range Smith was an 80 yd. shotgun, ducks or Pheasants. All of this shooting was done with large lead shot and high velocities.
Jakearoo, the wild 75 yd. pheasants are still here, and yes a lot of the locals still shoot 3" mag. shotguns at them. I bought my first 10 mag. fifty years ago this year it was an AYA We mail orderd two of them from Kliens (Back page of Outdoor Life). By 1960 the AYA was gone and I had settled in with a 8lb+ Parker with 3" chambers and 10 lb 1 oz. Ithaca #500422 mag. ten. I have spent the last 47 years hunting these same wild pheasants with magnum shotguns. "Hell yes" I have killed 75 yd. pheasants. I like # 3 hard lead shot or winchester lubaloy #2. I shoot a lot of hand loads. I have two sons and they grew up shooting mag. style shotguns at long ranges. We live less than 10 miles from the start of the pheasant hunting area , and with A 60+ day season both boys became good long range pheasant shooters. "What you never learn you never know".
Yes Jakearoo, if you know your POI.at 75 yds, and you have some of the heart and soul of Fred Kimble in the muzzle of your shot gun, big shot, and high velocity, you can kill pheasants at 75 yards and futher.
Good Shooting David Lien

Very well said, 2-P, as you usually do!
Thank you,