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Steve Culver graciously cleared up some confusion on my part regarding counting rods; Dr Gaddy counted scrolls and a damascus smith would count welds. Check out the revised doc. Unfortunately, when the aliens who run GoogleDocs changed the format to fit tablets (and sent a bunch of my pics to internet space ) it doesn't read as easily. Make sense?

Crolle Patterns - Terminology and Counting Scrolls, Rods & Welds
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zMmG-80ZUWwiLDbjBNk-wiOdDxKrhQL6jMNs5L2XVfc/edit

Brother Drew, thanks for all your hard work.
On some of the patterns shown, would any of them have a more common name such as "Star Damascus" etc?

Thanks - Paul

Star is what's on the Remington C grade. Get into Drews table of contents and go down to Remington damascus - you'll find it. It's what's on my C grade. Paul

I know what the pattern looks like, as I have one on a 2E L.C. Smith, just trying to compare to the real name.



A type of Crolle, don't know if it is 2 or 3

Youz guys r killin' me

Several variants of 'Star'

Etoile' with tiny stars INSIDE the scroll



American Flag Bunting or Washington with bigger stars INSIDE the scroll



And 'Turkish Star' with alternating black and white stars OUTSIDE the scrolls

This is Dr Gaddy's (out of focus) example



and David's first image could be called 'Star'

THE PROBLEM is that stars are present between the scrolls in any crolle pattern, and Steve is working on helping me understand.

I'll address David's 3rd image in a bit.

David's 3rd pattern is a very interesting Hufnagel variant called 'Rosen', and is usually 3 Iron.

Rosa Damascena



Some Remington Oxford 4 S.J. patterns are Rosen



It is uncommonly seen on British guns but here's a Walter Locke & Co., with no doubt Belgian sourced tubes



The 'zipper weld' down the middle of each scroll is quite apparent, and straight, but the ribband edge welds are not well seen, and all the scrolls are about the same size meaning the ribband edge was not compressed when 'jumped' / hammer welded. SO 'reading' the number of rods is difficult.
Note there is a large star between the scrolls also.

Just wondering, but to my eye, the large star is the scroll. This pattern may not have a ribband and just be continuous rod, but possibly could it be a three rod ribband with subjectively wider appearing welds roughly every third weld, the ribband weld.

Those tiny stars in earlier patterns may just be twisted light colored square stock laid up like up like the bernard pattern is made with some square stock and not just sheet stock before the whole rod is twisted, maybe.

Interesting stuff Doc Drew.

Craig: Steve will be along to help. For some reason his wife thinks he should be in the shop pounding out something to sell

The point of my sending this information to Drew, was to point out to him how a damascus smith might view a crolle pattern differently than Dr. Gaddy and others may. To a modern damascus smith, the primary feature in a damascus pattern made from a twisted rod of flat laminates, is the star; not the area that Dr. Gaddy calls the scroll, or whorl. I suppose that viewing a crolle pattern can be compared to artworks where it is possible for the viewer to see two different images in the same design, depending on which is chosen to focus on. Neither view is wrong, but just different perspectives.

Dr. Gaddy saw the overall visual impact of a crolle pattern to be the design created by the pattern features at the edges of two adjoining rods. I cannot state with certainty that this isn't exactly what the barrel smiths intended. In fact, some damascus barrel patterns, such as chain and patterns with words in them, intentionally use the edge features of adjoining rods to create a design that will attract the viewer's attention. So, it may be of no surprise that Dr. Gaddy saw crolle in the same way.

When making an item out of twisted laminates, most modern damascus smiths will consider the stars to be the primary features in the pattern. We are concerned with the interval of spacing between the stars and the shape of the stars in the final surface. The interval of spacing desired, will dictate the twist rate of the rod. The shape of the stars, dictates how much excess material is left on the forging and intended to be ground away to reach the final surface. We have no name for the area that Dr. Gaddy calls "scrolls". Those areas we see as just fill pattern, which defines the stars. This being my background, when I look at crolle patterns, I am focused on the stars.

A separate topic in my communications with Drew, was how to determine the number of rods, or irons, that were used to make the ribband. Drew copied into his document the image that I sent him with red lines indicating the welds. When I am looking at a pattern in a damascus barrel, I am looking for the weld lines between the rods, and also the welds at the riband edges. The welds at the ribband edges are almost always straight. This is because the edges of the ribband were forged straight, making a nice straight butt weld joint when they are welded into a barrel tube. The weld lines between the rods are typically wavy. I have seen them described as a "zipper" weld. Not sure that is a perfect name for them; but it paints a picture in one's mind. The shape of the zipper welds is caused by the ridges created by the twisting of the square rods. I determine the number of rods, (irons) used in the ribband by counting the number of zipper welds that are between the straight weld lines.

Now having said all of that; and as Dr. Gaddy stated, it is not always easy to determine the difference between the ribband edge welds and the welds between the rods. One reason for this, is that the smith does not have to leave the twisted rids in their round cross section. He could choose to forge, or grind the round rods to create flats sides on them before welding them into a ribband. Welding the flat sides together would eliminate the wavy weld lines. It appears that most barrel smiths did not take the time to re-forge the rods and/or did not waste material by grinding flats on them. But, it was entirely possible for them to do either and I believe that some did. Almost all modern damascus smiths will forge a twisted rod back to a square cross section before welding it to other rods. I forged two flat sides on the rods that I used to make my damascus barrel. So the possibility exists and should be considered when examining a barrel pattern where the weld lines cannot be differentiated.

And yet another point to consider. Though most all of the old texts talk about twisting of the rods before welding them into a ribband, not all patterns are made entirely of twisted rods. Some have a combination of twisted and untwisted rods. Some are made entirely of untwisted rods. Patterns made entirely of untwisted rods will make it very difficult to differentiate between the welds.

With barrel patterns where the welds cannot be differentiated, about the only way to determine the number of rods used to make the ribband is to find a scarf weld, or an area where the ribband has been ground through to display the end of the ribband. By looking at a section of the end of the ribband, it may be possible to count the number of rods/irons used. In this area too, it may be possible to determine the piling arrangement of the billet/lopin.

Okay Guys. LOL!! I was getting ready to post this information up and saw all of the additional comments on this thread. You all have some very good questions. I am trying to put together some information, describing how damascus gun barrel patterns are made. I am starting with the simplest of patterns and working up through the more complicated ones. This is quite lengthy and will take me some time to finish. I also need time to weld up some damascus and make some visual aids to photograph. I'll answer your question on this forum as I can. But know that more complete information is in the works.