|
S |
M |
T |
W |
T |
F |
S |
|
|
|
|
1
|
2
|
3
|
4
|
|
5
|
6
|
7
|
8
|
9
|
10
|
11
|
|
12
|
13
|
14
|
15
|
16
|
17
|
18
|
|
19
|
20
|
21
|
22
|
23
|
24
|
25
|
|
26
|
27
|
28
|
29
|
30
|
31
|
|
|
|
4 members (SKB, NCTarheel, 2 invisible),
420
guests, and
3
robots. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
Forums10
Topics39,488
Posts561,982
Members14,584
| |
Most Online9,918
Jul 28th, 2025
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,098 Likes: 43
Sidelock
|
OP
Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,098 Likes: 43 |
This phrase appears on the barrel of a Mauser sporter next to the name J D Moritz' Sohn, Leipzig. It would seem to identify the steel used in this barrel. Can anyone provide some interpretation here? Thanks for any explanation.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 527
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 527 |
I would interpret that as J.D. Moritz and Son of Leipzig - either the maker / merchant / owner. I don't think it has anything to do with the steel used. JMHO --- John
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 12,076 Likes: 377
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 12,076 Likes: 377 |
A guess was that is was an early recipe for Röchling's Special Steel with some percentages of Wolfram, Nickel & Chrome and possible others. It was an attempt by the descendants of Johann Gottfried Röchling, no children; therefore nephews, that were developing a steel to compete with Poldi's Antikorro/Anticorro. I'm sure there is much more to the story. I'm curious of V. Chr. Treibel along with V. Chr. Schilling had the alloy steel market cornered and was also the source for this too? Any Triebel marks underneath? http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...true#Post300321Kind Regards, Raimey rse
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,098 Likes: 43
Sidelock
|
|
OP
Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,098 Likes: 43 |
Thanks, Raimey. Yes, the receiver rail is engraved Chr Friedr Triebel, Suhl. I haven't seen many German rifles with different names on the barrel and receiver.
Bill Ferguson
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 8,158 Likes: 114
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 8,158 Likes: 114 |
A guess was that is was an early recipe for Röchling's Special Steel with some percentages of Wolfram, Nickel & Chrome and possible others. It was an attempt by the descendants of Johann Gottfried Röchling, either sons or nephews, that were developing a steel to compete with Poldi's Antikorro/Anticorro. I'm sure there is much more to the story. I'm curious of V. Chr. Treibel had the alloy steel market cornered and was also the source for this too? Any Triebel marks underneath? http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums ubbthreSearchpage=1&Main=18518&Words=poldi&Search=true#Post300321 Kind Regards, Raimey rse Chrome Vanadium steels (AISI 6150) were/are an alloyed steel grade developed in France by J. Forqualt, who also perfected the electric melt furnace, to replace the Bessemer and BOF techniques used then to produce alloyed steels. Henry Ford discovered this in a 1906 trip to France--Wolfram is no longer used in electric melting steel production, but in the 1900's it was a form of a stabilizer, similar to silicone--Nice to know the Frogs can do something besides smell badly and drown their food in sauces and gravies of various sorts--
"The field is the touchstone of the man"..
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 12,076 Likes: 377
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 12,076 Likes: 377 |
The Boys Röchling spent some time in the French penitentiary after WWI for destroying some French mills or something of the like.
Since Triebel is on the tube, he just may have been the outlet for the Röchling-Sonderstahl R.7.L.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 527
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 527 |
Sorry All I misunderstood the ?, my only excuse is a senior's moment. --- John
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,098 Likes: 43
Sidelock
|
|
OP
Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,098 Likes: 43 |
John, we all get those. Thanks for your response and for yours, Raimey.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 12,076 Likes: 377
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 12,076 Likes: 377 |
No worries but could you pleasure us with a few images of the marks to see if possibly Triebel was a Röchling-Sonderstahl(Special Steel) vendor also. For now it is tough to pin down the date for Röchling-Sonderstahl but I would guess circa WWI and a date code might help narrow the date.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 12,076 Likes: 377
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 12,076 Likes: 377 |
 Not exactly the Röchling Sonder Steel mark I was looking for but Röchling Sonderstahl Marke Furodit  Chr. Friedr. Triebel sideplated boxlock proofed May 1946 with Röchling Sonderstahl tube steel. Kind Regards, Raimey rse
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 12,076 Likes: 377
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 12,076 Likes: 377 |
It appears that the same steel is also referred to as Röchling Spezial Stahl R7L. Now Herman Roechling(1827-1910)-(Völklinger Hütte) developed a Spezial Steel in 1916 for the German Military hard-bonnets or helmets. Might be a stretch but this just might be the same steel?? But not sure if a helmet steel and tube steel would be similar.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 6,672 Likes: 579
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 6,672 Likes: 579 |
RWTF, having just spent a few days in Quebec, I have reminded myself that I am generally no fan of the French. In fact, I heard earlier today that France had pre-emptively surrendered to North Korea. But i have to admit, they do a few things very well.
Double guns is one and food is another.
I know you are proud of your Irish heritage but, as with the English and the Scots, of which I am one, I'm not sure we have much of a leg to stand on when it comes to complaining about food from other lands.
The world cries out for such: he is needed & needed badly- the man who can carry a message to Garcia
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 12,076 Likes: 377
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 12,076 Likes: 377 |
Ah, Francis gets on a tear/jag every now & again and it may be Schnaps? Anyway, I'm inclined to think that the R in the Röchling Spezial Stahl R7L just might be for Rodenhauser. Hermann Röchling & Wilhem Rodenhauser teamed up in 1905 I believe it was & it may be their 1st alloy developed between 1907-1916? Their furnace, Röchling-Rodenhauser-Induktions-Ofens, was online by 1908. Roechling had a large influence at Mousson in the French province of Lorraine by establishing a monopoly. Apparently in 1914 in constructing their own steel mill the Carlshütte they were utilizing components, tools & machinery from the French-Lorraine area and after WWI that was frowned upon by the powers that be and in 1918 one of the Röchling fellas(probably Hermann & maybe a brother Robert) was convicted of disassembly of a French multiple smelter and the demerit was 10 years, fine of 10 million Francs and a banishment of 15 years from Saarland. Looks as if Robert spent some time there as Hermann was elusive and escaped to Heidelberg.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 8,158 Likes: 114
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 8,158 Likes: 114 |
Ah, Francis gets on a tear/jag every now & again and it may be Schnaps? Anyway, I'm inclined to think that the R in the Röchling Spezial Stahl R7L just might be fore Rodenhauser. Hermann Röchling & Wilhem Rodenhauser teamed up in 1905 I believe it was & it may be their 1st alloy developed between 1907-1916? Their furnace, Röchling-Rodenhauser-Induktions-Ofens, was online by 1908. Roechling had a large influence at Mousson in the French province of Lorraine by establishing a monopoly. Apparently in 1914 in constructing their own steel mill the Carlshütte they were utilizing components, tools & machinery from the French-Lorraine area and after WWI that was frowned upon by the powers that be and in 1918 one of the Röchling fellas(probably Hermann & maybe a brother Robert) was convicted of disassembly of a French multiple smelter and the demerit was 10 years, fine of 10 million Francs and a banishment of 15 years from Saarland. Looks as if Robert spent some time there as Hermann was elusive and escaped to Heidelberg.
Kind Regards,
Raimey Ja, meine Fruend, Sie bist korrekt- Ich leibe schnapps- Rumplemintz-- uber alles!!
rse
Last edited by Run With The Fox; 04/10/13 08:08 AM.
"The field is the touchstone of the man"..
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 12,076 Likes: 377
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 12,076 Likes: 377 |
Good to hear, Francis as I almost always get a chuckle.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 8,158 Likes: 114
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 8,158 Likes: 114 |
RWTF, having just spent a few days in Quebec, I have reminded myself that I am generally no fan of the French. In fact, I heard earlier today that France had pre-emptively surrendered to North Korea. But i have to admit, they do a few things very well.
Double guns is one and food is another.
I know you are proud of your Irish heritage but, as with the English and the Scots, of which I am one, I'm not sure we have much of a leg to stand on when it comes to complaining about food from other lands. My oldest daughter, as her mother (my first Frau) majored in French in HS- for her HS (my daughter's) senior trip, they were going to Paris for ten days- The Sorbonne, the Louve, the Champs de Ulysses, all the arrondisments (sic) Ernie Hemingway knew, and wrote about in the "Moveable Feast" !! But World terrorism had already reared its sad and sorry head, and the PTB decided a trip to Quebec was safer- so they went there- Montreal is indeed, also a moveable feast indeed. Lynne's mother graduated from Oberlin Ladies College in Ohio with a solid major in French; and went to Paris one summer to study at the Sorbonne, the next summer to Switzerland to study at Bern-- so she had more of the influx of how the French folk speak their native language--! Lynne and her mother conversed in French as part of her HS study-- and when she and her friends returned, she told her mother-- "Mom, they don't speak real French French in Quebec, do they?'' Being a mix of Slavic and Irish lineage, I avoid food covered with rich sauces- recalling the old adage-- "Doctors bury their mistakes in graveyards, lawyers send their mistakes to elected political office, and bad cooks cover their mistakes with sauces one has trouble pronouncing well" As to the Frogs as gun-makers- from a military standpoint, they stink- as for the sporting guns, recalling the late Michael Mcintosh's review of Georges Granger shotguns-- If they are George's guns, let them be and move on to the really great Limey and Italian sidelocks-- No greater egos exist than in France-- one of the numbered Louie's had the audacity to state "Le Etat, C'est Moi" How ballsy- or should I say- Balzac, is that???
Last edited by Run With The Fox; 04/09/13 12:16 PM.
"The field is the touchstone of the man"..
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 12,076 Likes: 377
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 12,076 Likes: 377 |
Interesting that sometime in late 1908 the Societe Cockerill in Seraing was going to install an electric/Girod furnace or something like a Héroult furnace. But Qualitätsstahl and Spezialstahl are recipes that are associated with a Röchling - Roderhauser furnace. Also in 1908 a Röchling - Roderhauser furnace is to be installed in Liege at the Societe des Alieries. This makes me wonder if the tubes were rolled there?
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 6,672 Likes: 579
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 6,672 Likes: 579 |
My oldest daughter, as her mother (my first Frau) majored in French in HS- for her HS (my daughter's) senior trip, they were going to Paris for ten days- The Sorbonne, the Louve, the Champs de Ulysses, all the arrondisments (sic) Ernie Hemingway knew, and wrote about in the "Moveable Feast" !! But World terrorism had already reared its sad and sorry head, and the PTB decided a trip to Quebec was safer- so they went there-
Montreal is indeed, also a moveable feast indeed. Lynne's mother graduated from Oberlin Ladies College in Ohio with a solid major in French; and went to Paris one summer to study at the Sorbonne, the next summer to Switzerland to study at Bern-- so she had more of the influx of how the French folk speak their native language--! Lynne and her mother conversed in French as part of her HS study-- and when she and her friends returned, she told her mother-- "Mom, they don't speak real French French in Quebec, do they?''
Being a mix of Slavic and Irish lineage, I avoid food covered with rich sauces- recalling the old adage-- "Doctors bury their mistakes in graveyards, lawyers send their mistakes to elected political office, and bad cooks cover their mistakes with sauces one has trouble pronouncing well"
As to the Frogs as gun-makers- from a military standpoint, they stink- as for the sporting guns, recalling the late Michael Mcintosh's review of Georges Granger shotguns-- If they are George's guns, let them be and move on to the really great Limey and Italian sidelocks--
No greater egos exist than in France-- one of the numbered Louie's had the audacity to state "Le Etat, C'est Moi" How ballsy- or should I say- Balzac, is that??? RWTF, I have to confess my surname is actually a French name. Occasionally some lovely SxS's circa 1900 show up made by a very distant relative. However, while my surname is French, I believe that French DNA has been vastly outnumbered by the 8,000 or so other contributors to my genetic makeup since Roblin left France in a hurry in the 1500s, a Huguenot in the wrong place at the wrong time. After a shortish stay in England it was on to the 13 colonies for a number of generations before backing the wrong horse and having to leave in a hurry around 1776. Throughout that period and up to the present day it has been one long, continuous effort to dilute the French blood. When I was in my mid twenties and while happily unattached, I got a phone call from a quite attractive friend who had just spent three years at cooking school in Paris. "Come over" she said. "I've got a month before I have to return to Canada. Let's tour France". So I did. It turned into a three week eating tour of most of the regions of France south of Paris. Searching out the most authentic places and local styles to eat, with a guide who was immersed in the subject. It changed my lifelong eating habits! And as you suggest, my default prior was that sauces were to hide crappy food. Sorry for the diversion from topic. Ha! Just put my high school German to use and translated your response to Raimey's comment without resorting to Google.
Last edited by canvasback; 04/09/13 05:16 PM. Reason: correction
The world cries out for such: he is needed & needed badly- the man who can carry a message to Garcia
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 8,158 Likes: 114
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 8,158 Likes: 114 |
Interesting that sometime in late 1908 the Societe Cockerill in Seraing was going to install an electric/Girod furnace or something like a Héroult furnace. But Qualitätsstahl and Spezialstahl are recipes that are associated with a Röchling - Roderhauser furnace. Also in 1908 a Röchling - Roderhauser furnace is to be installed in Liege at the Societe des Alieries. This makes me wonder if the tubes were rolled there?
Kind Regards, Raimey- as an amateur student of metallurgy, do you know what the chemical compositions of Quality Steels and then the Rochling Special Steels are, and perhaps how they differ. Just a SWAG, but it makes sense to me that they were indeed, roll formed there in Liege- but of course, I am neither a "Frenchy or a Belgie" so perhaps, Machts nicht, Ja!!
Raimey
rse
"The field is the touchstone of the man"..
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 765 Likes: 2
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 765 Likes: 2 |
I have a Funk drilling with Roechling electro marked on the rifle barrel (bohler antinit on the shotgun barrels). The fore end hanger covers half the "o" in electro, and maybe other letters? Steve
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 765 Likes: 2
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 765 Likes: 2 |
What I meant to suggest was that "electro" indicated an electric furnace?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 12,076 Likes: 377
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 12,076 Likes: 377 |
Yes, or utilizing huge amounts of electricity in the process:
Röchling Elektro - page 124
http://books.google.com/books?id=0pojAQAAMAAJ&pg=PR18&lpg=PR18&dq=R%C3%B6chling+Elektro&source=bl&ots=410gigGJdM&sig=YfHI5U-LHI_OD7DDedjOrhEYxy4&hl=en&sa=X&ei=-d9mUYDjNYWe9QTE2YDQBA&ved=0CGMQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=R%C3%B6chling%20Elektro&f=false
copy & paste
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2024
Posts: 118 Likes: 13
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2024
Posts: 118 Likes: 13 |
An old and interesting thread, which just was revived in a neighbour forum by Buckstix. So, one addition from me: as a steel producer, you make no money in civilian small arms barrel steels, but you gain exposure and a certain pedigree even. I believe that may have been one reason why Röchling too sought to cover this economic niche between the wars. Personal connections may also have played a role. Mahrholdt's Handbuch für Waffenfreunde, 1st ed. 1931, lists three Röchling "Laufstahlsorten" under this very lemma. Here is a link: https://diglib.uibk.ac.at/download/pdf/845775.pdfRegards, Carcano
|
|
|
|
|
