doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Help identify double shotgun!!

I recently obtained a very nice side by side shotgun. It is a twelve bore with 28" barrels, double triggers, straight grip and splinter forehand. It appears to be a very high grade boxlock extractor action, elaborately engraved with rose and scroll and the wood is very nicely figured in probably circassian walnut. It definitely has a very English look and feel. It is very light and well balanced. This gun is very expertly crafted. It is choked cylinder on right and full on left. It has an automatic safety with the word safe inlaid in gold letters. There is no makers name anywhere on it. It has the word "stil" on the under side of the barrel flats and on the action flat. Also it says "ful" and "choke" also a 12C inside a diamond. Two three lobed crowns with a cross on top over what it looks like the letter Y but with three arms inside a square. The only one of these proof marks I have ever seen before like these is the 12C inside the Diamond on early 20th century English guns. I have no idea what the other marks are...the serial number is 5176.
I would like to find out country of origin and approximate year of manufature,










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The offset screw in the top tang is like Webley and Scott guns used .

LuisH'
thats a pretty nice gun mate.A very pretty boxlock, nice wedges of scroll on the bbls.
Are those English proofs?,I don't think so, they are odd, weird spelling.
Bohemian ?
Raimey or someone will know
Nice gun though mate
cheers
franc

I replied on the ShotgunWorld forum. But I will add it here as well. The long "serial number" on the frame makes me think it was in Japan at some point. They used these long numbers stamped on the frame as either a control number or an export number. This would also make sense with there being no makers name and odd proof marks.

There were several Japanese makers coping English shotguns pre WWII. Some had 2 1/2" chambers, most I have seen were 2 3/4" or more with very long forcing cones (for the time) 1" long or more.

Here are a few pictures of my Japanese guns for reference.
In order: Mashiro, Ito Hailand, unsigned (possibly Kasuga), B&K Hamada

Note the long control/export number stamped on the first 3 water tables.

Also note the odd proof marks on the third gun. Looks like they were trying to copy Birmingham proofs, but added a KA. Also didn't get all of the characters in NITRO PROOF.

Oganza. Thanks for taking the time to look at this shotgun and post your photos. What you describe seems to make a lot of sense, particularly when it comes to the marks and the long "control" number. I checked out the Hamada web site and took a look at their history and their pre worldII side by side shotguns were very impressive indeed - however comparatively speaking, when observing those photos that I have seen, and those that you kindly shared I will repeat my comment previously posted on shotgun world:
" I was able to look at some of the Japanese guns that you suggested by doing a web search. Some seem very nice indeed. We all know that the Japanese craftsmen are capable of amazing work. Nevertheless there are quite apparent differences between the guns that I viewed in the photos and the shotgun that I introduced for identification. Even though they are quite nice, the Japanese guns have a production look to them, predominantly machined including most of the engraving which seems stamped and very symmetrical - this is a complete contrast to "my shotgun" which has a very custom -bespoke- look and feel to it. The engraving for example is quite deep, very extensive, elaborate, meticulous and -completely hand executed, no doubt about it- The tight checkering is also very nicely done exclusively by hand - It is completely hand fitted and finished with the hand tool marks still slightly visible on the metal. It has considerable cast off and drop which points away from a production model...
I am not saying that this gun is not possibly of Japanese origin - I simply do not know- but comparatively it simply does not seem that way. If you have any additional info. that could shed additional light on this I would certainly appreciate it very much....

Luis, the Japanese made all types and qualities of doubles. A friend has a Japanese made "droplock" that would not take a back seat to most Westley Richards of that same model. It would be interesting to have the engravers who watch here give their take on the engraving on your gun.

Yes. Thanks for your comment. I do understand your point. It could possibly be a higher grade Japanese copy of an English double considering the much nicer wood and all the characteristics that I just mentioned. I should also emphasize the the wood checkered butt is beautifully executed with skipline checkering - one of the best I have ever seen - and yes it would be great if I could get some expert comments on the quality of the engraving for sure. It would be great if we could find out who actually handcrafted this piece.

That crown with a cross certainly isn't a Japanese proofmark. Looks more central European, but doesn't match up with any standard set of proofmarks as far as I can tell.

Sorry I didn't respond on SW forum, it hasn't been working for me the last few days.

These guns are definitely different from the standard production guns like the Miroku, SKB, BSS and Winchester 23's. These guns were built in small numbers by a number of shops, much like the English gun trade. They have excellent wood and metal fitting, as well as hand engraving. Mine are all light and very nice to shoot.

John Mann, a poster on this forum, did much to educate me. Some of his posts show up in the threads below.

Here are links to previous threads on this type of gun:
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...6391#Post266391
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=20964&page=1

Oganza - thanks for taking the time to educate me about this. I glanced through the various links and sub-links that you provided and took a look at the photos and comments. It all makes a lot of sense that this gun is linked to custom Japanese manufacture. I am totally aligned with you presently. Nevertheless - I have yet to see any of the other "Japanese" side by sides shotguns posted here on the same level of crafstmanship and the highly figured quality of the walnut. When you take a look at my photos I think that you can determine that. Even that "copy" of the Westley Richards" drop lock -even though it is quite nicely done has relatively plain wood compared to mine. In addition the marks on my gun are simple but very clear and crisp -not messy- the long number on the action flat seems to have been stamped long after the gun was manufactured - and is clearly much more recent that the other stamps...
Yes I would be curious to get some feedback from John Mann as he seems to have a great deal of expertise in this area.
Thank you very much for taking the time.