doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Moore & co.

Hi, guys!
I posted this on Shotgunworld, but didn't get any luck so far. Maybe you can help.
Back in June at Friendship, the wife bought me a sweet percussion SxS so that I can shoot trap with her, rather than just dumping her off and heading to the skeet range. :lol:
Anyway, I like to research our original guns that we shoot, and I'm drawing a blank on this one.
Like I said, it is a percussion bar-action SxS, marked 13 ga in one barrel, and 14 in the other (but it actually mikes out a little looser, so we can use 13 ga. wads in both. Marking on the locks is "Moore & Co.", and just "Fine twist" on the top rib. It also has Birmingham proof marks underneath, that has it dated 1855 - 1875
At first, I figured that it was going to be a Belgian knock-off, playing on WM. Moore's good name, but the Birmingham proof marks threw me for a loop :?
I'm not looking for a value, as we bought this as a shooter because it really fits me well. Just wanting to know more about the maker.

There was a William Moore who was a London Gunmaker of some repute. He used the title William Moore & Co, 43, Old Bond Street, from 1854 to 1872. At other times the title included his associate Wlliam Grey along side his own name. I would expect the full name of William Moore and London proof marks. It could be someone trading on his name. I did once have a gun marked Wm. Moore that was of poor quality and trading on his good name which I de-activated as a wall piece. I should just go with the quality of the gun and wheter you like it or not. If you can post a photograph it may help in determining its origins. Lagopus.....

William Moore was a stocker for Jos. Manton before leaving to start his own company. I have an 1870ish Wm. Moore and the stock work shows his expertise.

[img:left][/img]

I've copied a history of William Moore here, that was posted on this board earlier this year. It certainly shows that he sold guns under a variety of names in various partnerships. I didn't see a Moore and Co though. I have a Moore and Harris percussion double that I shoot a fair bit, so I downloaded the post.

My gun has Birmingham on the rib, but London proof marks.

The Post:

William Moore was probably born in 1787. In 1808 he was recorded as being in business at 118 Whitechapel. He was also recorded as being a stocker for Joseph Manton, probably from 1809 to 1820. It is possible that Charles Moore of the firm of that name was his son.

From 1818 to 1853 William Moore lived at Colchester Road, Edgeware. In 1820 he established his own business at that address, but by 1828 his trade had increased to the point where he required larger premises so he opened a shop at 78 Edgeware Road.

In 1829 he opened a stock making business at Court, 4 Whittall Street, Birmingham. This may also have been a purchasing office and finishing workshop.

In 1835 a percussion lock developed by Moore was rejected by the Board of Ordnance.

In 1836 William Moore was appointed Gunmaker-in-Ordinary to King William IV, and in that year the name of the firm changed to William Moore & Co.

In 1837 or 1838 the firm were appointed gunmakers to Prince Albert.

Also in 1837 the business at Court, 4 Whittall Street moved to 35 Loveday Street, it was recorded up to 1845.

In 1838 William Moore and William Harris became partners in the firm of Moore & Harris, also at 35 Loveday Street, William Harris also traded from these premises in his own name (it is likely that William Harris was related to Alfred Harris who traded as a gun barrel maker in Birmingham - see Joseph Harris of Lionel Street).

In 1840 the partnership was recorded at 36 Loveday Street trading as gun and pistol makers; at least some of the guns sold were marked Moore & Harris, London, the partnership probably used William Moore's address. The firm appears to have supplied the trade as well as William Moore in London, some of the guns sold were marked "London" and were proved in London; the partnership also developed an export trade to the USA.

From 1840 to 1845 William Moore also traded in his own name as a gunsmith from 35 Loveday Street (the terms "gunsmith" and "gun maker" were interchangeable at that time), Harris also ceased trading in his own name in 1845.

In 1847 William Moore and William Parker Grey, who had been Clerk and then Manager for Joseph Manton, went into partnership in London at 78 Edgeware Road, they operated as Wm Moore & Grey but Wm Moore also continued to trade as Wm Moore & Co, presumably in respect of one or two aspects of his business.

In 1852 William Moore and William Harris patented a percussion revolver which was produced in limited quantities (Patent No. 69).

In 1854 William Moore and William Grey started to trade as William Moore & Grey from 43 Old Bond Street, but William Grey and his son, F H Grey, also started to trade as William Grey & Son at 41 Old Bond Street. William Moore may also have traded from 43 Old Bond Street as William Moore & Co. Between 1854 and 1859 the firm of William Moore and William Grey, like William Moore & Co, were appointed gunmakers to Prince Albert.

By 1859 in Birmingham, Moore & Harris had expanded into barrel and lock making and in 1861 they moved to the Great Western Gun Works at 91 Constitution Hill.

In 1861 Frederick Beesley was apprenticed to William Grey at William Moore & Co at 43 Old Bond Street.

In 1862 the partnership of William Moore and William Harris exhibited military and sporting guns at the International Exhibition in London.

Between 1862 and 1865 the firm advertised the fact that guns not made by them were being engraved with the name Wm Moore & Co, London.

In 1864, perhaps because of temporary financial problems or because William Moore died (no date is known), the business at the Great Western Gun Works at 91 Constitution Hill was sold at auction; the buyers were a partnership composed of "Moore and Harris" and a Mr Richards. The Moore could have been William Moore or his wife, or William Moore Jnr (?), Mr Richards was probably Westley Richards.

However, the new partnership closed within a year and the business was sold to W & C Scott & Son who valued the firm's USA export market. The firm of Moore & Harris, perhaps now owned by William Harris, probably moved to London, they were known to have been trading in 1867 from 2 Long Acre, London. When they ceased trading is not known, but it may have been prior to 1870 or even up to 1877.

In 1866 Henry Atkin moved from Purdey to work for the firm, he founded his own business in 1877.

In 1867 F H Grey, who by this time had probably taken over from his father, patented internal strikers on hammer guns (No. 2743).

In about 1873 the name of the Moore & Grey partnership may have temporarily changed to William Moore, Grey & Co. In 1878 the firm became a limited liability company, William Moore & Grey Ltd but in 1889 it reverted to unlimited liability.

In 1893, when the Inanimate Bird Shooting Association was formed, a "Mr Harris of Moore & Grey" attended. Apparently, he ran the Wealdstone Gun Club which was based at Harrow.

At some time prior to 1896 the firm registered a patent (No. 18582) for an automatic safety.

In 1896 the firm moved to 165 Piccadilly and in 1902 to 8 Craven Street, Strand. In about 1897 they opened a branch at 11 The Arcade, Aldershot; Aldershot was and still is the "home" of the British army. It appears that, in common with other gunmakers at the time, the firm's sales did not warrant in-house gunmaking facilities, and that they were buying guns from Cogswell & Harrison.

In 1908 Cogswell & Harrison took over the firm, and Robert Grey joined them. This was probably when the Aldershot branch closed.

In 1917 Cogswell & Harrison moved the company to their own premises at 226 Strand and William Moore & Grey ceased to trade under their own name.

In 1928 Robert Grey died, also in that year Cogswell & Harrison left the Strand and operated only from 168 Piccadilly. They later included a "Moorgrey" model in their range of guns, this was a low priced model which was never very popular.

genuine william moore made guns will have his name and one of his addresses engraved on the top rib. any other moore marked gun was not made by william moore nor anyone else in his employee.

same goes pretty much for other guns stamped with the name of a famous makers, such as manton. if there is no name and address on the top rib then it is most likely is a knock off made by some body else, trying to capitalize on a famous name...

Mine is Engraved Wm Moore and Co. London on the Rib.
Interesting mystery. It is Birmingham proofed and a well made gun.

The Wm. Moore gun that I deactivated was of very inferior quality; plain and, well, just dreadful. I do have William Moore & Grey gun from the 43 Old Bond Street address built on an 1871 Thomas snap action. A double 20 bore with game scene engraving that is number 1 of a pair. A lot of the more famous Gunmakers had someone who knocked out poor imitations to try to trap the unwary. They had to be good enough to pass proof (unless the marks were forged) and so would, or should, have been safe to use. Lagopus.....

stallones: if there is not one of the addresses listed above also engraved on the top rib then it aint a product of William moore or his shop. I have seen William moore marked guns with Belgian proofs that are crude. I have seen William moore marked guns with Birmingham proofs that are of moderate quality. then I have seen William moore marked guns with London proofs. these are of very high quality. following is a link to one of the better ones with an address:

http://www.gunsamerica.com/965451470/ENGLISH_DOUBLE_RIFLE_BY_WILLIAM_MOORE.htm

i would expect to see the bond street address on Mr Stallone's gun as it bears a strong resemblance to a top lever back action I had once.

issue three of Shooting Sportsman's digital magazine had a great article on the maker. Unfortunately we were not allowed to save the files.

the original poster's question was about a Moore and Co, i would doubt that is a Wm Moore, there were other Moores building guns, I remember a Charles for one, not sure how his were marked.

Thanks for the replies, guys!
I realized right off that this was not a William Moore gun, as everything that I had seen of his always had either "Wm." or "W." stamped in front of the Moore. Like I said in the first post, I was expecting it to be a Belgian knock-off. It was the Birmingham proof marks that have me bum-fuzzled.