doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com The new ways vs the old

Here is an interesting article from the BBC about the struggle between doing things the traditional way versus the perfection modern machinery can do it. The article could just as easily been discussing double guns.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-23523599

Ironic example is the use of modern quality controls to check traditional work, ie Xraying the joint of chopper lump barrels.

There is some confusion between the result and the means used to achieve it. Personally I have no fetish re "traditional hand work". I have enough technical knowledge to know that CNC machines and modern polishing processes get better results than hands, or that monobloc is the better barrel making method than chopper lump.

My interest is more in the ergonomics achieved in traditional guns and not the appeal of hand work, London addresses, prestigious names etc.

And still cannot fathom the insistence on using 17th century tinning technology involved in ribs on an item made by 21st century CNC machinery.

Just got a flash that seems somewhat related to the topic: the gourmet restaurant district in my area was paralysed by a power cut that put their microwaves out of action last year. It was then that "expert" food critics learned that a landmark resaurant's signature duck a l'orange was microwaved.

True; but isn't the reason we own old guns is the pleasure we get holding them and admiring the craftsmanship, thinking of the stories they could tell and knowing that human hands mostly made them and that they are still quite capable of doing the same as when they were new?

My view exactly.

Also if the CNC stuff is so good, why hasn't the price come down?

CNC is great, but even the best machining requires knowledgeable hand fitting. Why tin ribs today? Because it is still the best method for high quality guns. Karl Lippard has made double rifle barrels from a single billet of steel, but that venture was not well received by the market. Mono block superior to chopper lump? I'll politely disagree with your opinion on that. I love modern technology and we use it daily in our shop. That does not change what goes into a best gun though. It still takes LOTS of time, hand work and the best raw material available.

The admiration of old things is fully understood. It is a great pleasure to take an old gun apart and see the thought that went into its design, the marks left by the craftsmen that built it. No argument on that score.

However, we can do the same good work today, if we want to (and that is a big IF)with modern machines.

Why CNC has not brought down the prices? Bruce Owen, production manager of Purdeys in his article in Shooting Sportsman 14 years ago posed the same question and answered it by throwing the ball onto the marketing departments. The implications are shocking. to me anyway.

Ribs are an abomination. When I mentioned the tinning it was not to imply there is something better. These strips that do nothing but provide a hidden recess for rust are not needed. Alex Martin built ribless guns, the French Darne is usually seen with no bottom rib. The Boss OU had no top rib. There are modern alternatives, ie removable light weight strips that can give any rib shape the shooter wants yet be light and removable so the barrels can be inspected and lubricated.

Go to artsgunshop.com and watch the rib relaying video. It is sobering to realise that rust can start to eat your barrels unseen between useless ribs.

The one undeniable quality of the older well made guns is their handling and elegance. Personally I do not care for makers' names, engraving or figured walnut. I have handled so called second tier guns, like Midland, Osborne, Leech, Horsley, Martin etc that had handling equal to any London top three. I believe this handling and "bespokeability" is reproducible, especially now that CNC machines are widely used and can be programmed to incorporate slight variations that would make a shotgun fully custom. An example is Perazzis CNC stock making. But we are not quite there yet. Most makers use the machines to maximise "efficiency" in turning out indifferent shotguns.

A Purdey will always be an expensive item because it is a Purdey, whether it was made by human hands or made on a CNC machine. It's an exclusive gun, not everyone is supposed to own one and not everyone has a need to own one. Double gun owners are a conservative lot and don't care for change which is why we like our ribbed guns, etc. CNC machining has allowed Galazans to turn out some nice stuff. He could have done had it not been for technology.

I think it is fair to say we see Best quality work from vastly different viewpoints. I re-lay ribs routinely as part of daily shop life. Do I enjoy it? No, not really. Do I see them as something of an abomination? Hardly. Something always looks "off" on those Alex Martin guns. The Boss O/U? Best work by anyone's book. Vastly different guns and designs. Holland and Purdey both figured it out long ago. As to why prices have not come down, well that is pretty straight forward. Watch the video that Holland put out and see the factory. The overhead is huge! The machines cost tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars/pounds. The number of hours it takes has not come down that much and labor is much more costly than in the past.

The news ways give us repeatability, and efficiency, but they do not remove the hours or overhead required to put out a product of this nature. It still takes time, and lots and lots of skill.

Steve

SKB and I agree in thought.

Also there are ordinary gunmakers and there are highest quality gunmakers. Same with craftsmen who lay ribs. Tining the entire barrel surface between the ribs with solder, then washing and cleaning away all flux (if you use acid core solder for this tining) leaves a surface ready for laying the ribs. This surface between the ribs will prevent rust from starting--of course one must lay the ribs with rosin as flux.

By-the-way, as mentioned by SKB the Holland video is a must have for side x side and OU gun people.

Bv