doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Eduard Kettner 9x58R Double Rifle - Need Info

Hello All,

I watched this Eduard Kettner 9x58R double rifle on Auction Arms for several months. I didn't have a double rifle in 9mm caliber, so it interested me. I really like the smaller caliber doubles. This was the listing.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=366234502

Week after week, month after month, the seller relisted this rifle. Several times he reduced his opening bid price, until finally he accepted an offer, that made this an affordable "curiosity" - that wanted to move to Wisconsin.

I say curiosity, because I've never seen a "pop-up" cheek piece before. A clever idea for shooting with/without a scope. The top and bottom metal work of the cheek piece each have a German patent number stamped on them. D.R.G.M. 240454

The claw mount bases are still there, but unfortunately no scope. I'm sure I'll spend the rest of my life searching the nooks and crannies of gun shows, to find a scope that will fit.

The rifle is in "very used" condition with many dings and several slivers of wood missing on the forend. Its had a rough life. Likely a WWII bring-back that was mistreated when gathered. But this is mostly cosmetic, and those things that count, bore, lock-up, etc., are all very good.

With all the Belgium proofs, I'm assuming Eduard Kettner was only the seller. But, I think there are a couple of German Eagle proofs, but I'm not sure. There is also a strnge stamp (proof?) on the bottom of the stock. So, that's why I'm posting this. Perhaps one of you can decipher the stampings. I'd be particularly interested to know the "year" of manufacture, and who might have made this rifle.

The barrels are marked "Eduard Kettner" on one barrel, and "Koln, A./RN" on the other. Anyone know what "A./RN" means? The seller listed the caliber as 9x58R "Sauer" - and "verified". I've soon found that there is absolutely NO brass or dies available for this cartridge. Apparently Sauer had his own line of cartridges based on his own idea of appropriate case dimensions. Custom dies from chamber casts would be 6 - 10 months in waiting. I don't think I can wait that long. I just don't have the patience.

Here are some pictures of the rifle.





















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Since I didn't have the patience to wait for custom reloading dies, and since I already own over 300 different sets of dies, I figured I could "mix & match" different dies to reload the 9x58R cases. But first I needed the cases. Here again, I found custom cases would take 2 - 3 to get. I hate waiting.

So, I decided to more forward. There are a very few cartridges that are even close the this strange 9x58R caliber. (none of the several Sauer caliber cases are available) Of the readily available brass, the 303 Savage is close, with only rim thickness being an issue, but the 303 Savage case is .300" too short. Both the 303 British and the 30-40 Krag have rim thickness and rim diameter issues, and both are "oversize" and longer, but the 303 British is still .050" too short. The 30-40 Krag is therefor the "best" choice; but I didn't have any of those, -so I had to use the 303 British. The loaded cartridges near the end of this post, show the bullet's crimping groove in the correct position had the case been the required .050" longer.

Here are the 16+ steps required in making the brass for this caliber. I'll go through the steps for those that might want to make their own 9x58R brass someday, although I doubt many have rifles were made in this caliber.

1. Once fired 303 British case.
2. Resize in a 303 FL Die.
3. Expand neck with a 338 Win Mag die.
4. Expand neck with a 9.3x74R die.
5. Partial resize in an 8x58 FL die.
6. Use "shave die" (modified 303 Savage FL die) to reduce case head. (partial stroke)
7. Use "shave die" to reduce case head. (re-lube & partial stroke)
8. Use "shave die" to reduce case head. (re-lube & final stroke)
9. Remove curl with lathe.
10. Reduce rim dia with lathe.
11. Thin rim with lathe.
12. Partial resize (modified 30-30 Win FL die)
13. Use "shave die" to reduce case head. (bottom against rim)
14. Cut rim groove with dremel tool cut-off disk and uniform case head (if required) with file.
15. Full length polish case with 360g emery paper.
16. Resize neck & load using 35 Rem Dies.




This is the "shave die". It is made from a "cut-off" 303 Savage FL die. The sharp edge of the die, shaves the excess material that is too hard to re-form by sizing. It takes several strokes of the press with re-lubing the case between each stroke. This requires a lot of force and a good press.


After the shave die and case are cleaned to remove the lube, the shave die is used to hold the case for the the several lathe operations to the case head and rim.


cont. ....

cont. ...








A cut-down 30-30 Win FL die is used for partial resizing of the case body. To fabricate and modify existing dies, I use a dremel tool with a cut-off disk to cut through the reloading dies. Sometimes it requires several cut-off disks to complete the job.



It took approx 5 hours to manufacture 37 cases. I started with 40, but had 3 losses along the way. Although there are a few minor cosmetic variations in the case heads and rims from case-to-case, I don't expect they will affect the function or accuracy when shooting the cartridges.




Later today, I plan to go to the range to test the loads and fire-form the cases for this new addition. Case volume and pressures are very close to that of the 35 Remington, so "starting" data for it was used in working up the loads for this cartridge. I'll keep you posted on the results.

Here are some additional pictures of interest. This is the adjustable cheek-piece removed. You can see the patent number stamped.



On the bottom of the stock, just forward of the cheek-piece height adjusting screw, there is a strange stamp. Looks like a "crown" over a "butterfly". ? ?



If you have enough different loading dies, you can mix-and-match to load just about everything.

buckstix,
Try this:
Trim 9.3x72R case to length,size to chamber(with what ever dies you have-35Rem,32-40 file/trim,etc),fireform,load with 9.3x57 dies as necksizing die(or 35Rem,etc).If you can't find 9.3 cases,you can use original length 38-55 cases,or the 2 1/4" 38-55 cases(for some Sharps caliber).These cases will be a few thousanths smaller in head diameter, but will fireform evenly, if centered in chamber by rim.If 9.3 dies are used, remove expander button or substitute 35 cal.
A friends hammer Ed.Kettner 9x58R is german made and marked 118.35, the same as many 9.3s, and "Slugs".358" like many of them.The 200 grain 35Rem (358") bullet works great in his rifle.
After making other cases using similar procedures to yours, I can feel for you, for the time you spent.I have found that if you start with a case up to .015" smaller in head diameter, you save a lot of grief,and they fireform great as long as centered in the chamber.I would suggest a form ground "parting tool" rather than the dremel, for the rim( if you cut this groove to final depth first,the "shaving" will roll off into it.)I'm not trying to "Sharpshoot" your procedures, I'm just very interested in this kind of thing.
Mike

Neat "how-to" from the both of you!

Hello Der Ami,

Thanks for the suggestions. 9.3x72R brass was not available to me. All sources I checked have it back-ordered. Also, the heads of the 9.3x72R that I measured on some cases I had, were about .008 undersize, and the rims were .475" dia instead of .498" diameter.

I just did a chamber cast of my barrels. Bores measures .350" dia and grooves measures .357" diameter. The Hornady 200g SP bullets, squirt through just fine.

"I say curiosity, because I've never seen a "pop-up" cheek piece before. A clever idea for shooting with/without a scope. The top and bottom metal work of the cheek piece each have a German patent number stamped on them. D.R.G.M. 240454"

Here is one I have on a 1903 Mannlicher-Schoenauer.I will dig it out and the patent numbers on it.

buckstix,
Yes, and the 38-55 headsize is even smaller, but usually works out ok.In my previous post,I forgot to suggest pushing the case all the way into the "Shave"die with a block on the shell holder or a 22 hornet shell holder.A punch would drive it out.This is when the "shaving"is pushed into the groove, saving a step.
Mike

Hello Der Ami,

Yes, I do that. See step no.13 above. "Use "shave die" to reduce case head. (bottom against rim)

The curl is too much (big) to break free on the first push, if I do this step earlier. I do it later with a smaller curl as a touch up if required.

buckstix,
You sound like a "man after my own heart".Too bad we don't live closer, seems like we have a lot of similar projects.
Mike