doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion German & Austrian Sporting Guns @ doublegunshop.com W. Collath Firearms

I just purchased a Collath and am trying to get some information about it.

I have two questions:

Is there a serial number list somewhere to date this Collath?
Mine is 167XX.

Second, does anyone know where to get 8X72R ammunition?

As you can tell I am a newby at this and very hungry for knowledge.

Mike

I don't know if this is the right 8 X 72R...and it's pricey!!!

http://www.buffaloarms.com/8X72R_Sauer_Ammunition_it-158152.aspx?CAT=4452

I checked Buffalo Arms because I know they often carry obsolete ammo. A web search might turn up some better prices. But it is obviously available. You'd be way better off to reload for it.

That is a start.

thanks for the quick response.

There is no listing of "Collath" serial numbers available. The company "G.Teschner & Co., Wilhelm Collath S�hne" in Frankfurt on Oder went out of business in 1940. Soon the German Gun Collectors Association www.germanguns.com will publish a special "Der Waffenschmied" issue #45 on Collath guns, containing articles on the company history, gun designs and cartridge developments.
The 8x72R cartridge was not a proprietary one of the Collaths, nor was it a "Sauer & Sohn" development. Instead, it was the first rifle cartridge designed by Wilhelm Brenneke, Leipzig, in 1898. He intended to get 8x57IR ballistics from a slimmer package, better suited to slim drilling actions. The "S&S" monicker is applied erroneously because it resembles a lengthened 8x58R Sauer & Sohn.

8X72R brass can be made from the not so hard to find 9.3X72R brass but it takes some patience. Proper annealing and regular cycling of the press in small steps with a freshening of sizing wax as you go will limit your number of wrinkled cases. Your cases will increase in length by roughly a 1/16" (the brass has to go somewhere) so trimming takes a bit of doing as well. After these three steps the rest is standard issue reloading.

Regards,

Mark

Wetmore,
In making cases for my 8x72R, I found it easier to full length size in 9.3x72R die w/o expander, then size in a 32-40 file/trim die.The case won't size all the way to the base(9.3 head is larger than 32-40),but it doesn't need to.Vic is correct about the difficulty of sizing the cases, but if you take your time and use a very strong press, it will work out.Since the 32-40 file/trim die has an open top, if a case sticks,drive it out with a punch(if you don't pull the rim off, the case will still be useable).If you have to use 8x72R dies to size them,don't use the expander assy, in case a case sticks.If you have to use 8x72 dies and have to force the cases to chamber for fireforming,they should loosen up after they are fired.This is the main advantage of using 32-40 die.
Mike

I have located some 8 X 72R brass and a set of loading dies the same size. Depending on the casting I get in about a week I will be able to better make a decision on what direction to go. The barrel has 172,28 stamped on it so I am expecting the casting to come back at .318.
Thanks to everyone for all this helpful information.
Mike

Mike,
I ,yesterday, recieved my copy of "Der Waffenschmied" issue # 45, as mentioned by Kuduae( who authored one of the very informative articles)above. I had agreed with Kuduae that Collath used the Brenneke designed normal 8x72R.However an article in "Der Waffenschmied" included a discussion of different cartridges used by Collath.This article included a "cut" from an old cataloge which shows two different 8x72R cartridges, one being the normal one and the other being a clearly "necked" cartridge.Both these cartridges showed the same load(except bullet wt. not given), but the "necked" cartridge was shown with superior ballistics.I'm not sure if this was an advertising ploy of if one or the other loads was mistaken.All that aside,the casehead looked to be the same or very similar;so the above suggestions for making cases would still work. If the cartridge turns out to be the necked one,you wouldn't need to resize to 32 nearly as far( maybe a 32 Win spec die would work).I load for mine with 8x57 dies, with expander assy removed. This would work for either version, whereas the normal dies wouldn't work very well with the necked version(continued fireforming would cause early case failue).The key to using the 8x57 dies is to adjust them to just "kiss" the shoulder(very small in the normal version)of fireformed cases.I hope I haven't confused matters too much.
Mike

Funny you mention the slight shoulder on the cartridge. I just got back the information on my casting and there is a slight shoulder about 2.325 above the the rim. It tapers slightly and then extends to the end of the neck. Your message triggered me to call the gunsmith back and go over it one more time. He had taken the drawing on stevespages and wrote in my measuremnts and didn't mention the taper in the neck.
How do I get the "Der Waffenschmied" issue #45 on Collath guns? I checked their site and it is not listed yet.
This is getting more interesting everyday.

Mike, (Wetmore),

If this is your first endeavor into chasing down a less than common cartridge, data and reloading supplies for it and the rifle, you have no idea how interesting it can become. If it isn't your first, then you already know!! It has once again become one of my chief delights.

Mike, (Der Ami),

Thanks for the credit for the knowledge of the difficulty of resizing the cases into 8 X 72R from the 9 X 72R but that rightfully belongs to Mark. I do, of course, understand the huge impression my vast knowledge makes and am not surprised at the mix up....lol!!! Uh-huh, yea right, you betcha! Any impression I make is because of my absence of knowledge and all the questions I ask!!!!

Vic