doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Worth the extra $ to have an AYA built to fit?

I have my heart set on a 16 gauge no.2

I am wondering if it is worth the money to buy one brand new so that I can have it made to my dimensions as measured by Fieldsport in Traverse City, MI..

From the looks of it I can only save around a thousand dollars by buying used.. and since I have never had a fitted shotgun, I love the idea of having one built to my specs. and I might learn a lot in the process.

Any thoughts?

Will you shoot it better than one on which the stock is set to fit you? No!

Will it light your fire? Maybe, maybe not. It wouldn't mine. I have maybe 20 guns, all with stocks set up to my specs. They all shoot as well as if they were bespoke guns.

Will you benefit from a fitting? You bet!

One thing that I forgot to mention is that I really love plain checkered stocks with no pad.. So that must be factored into the equation

If you are physically fit and move fairly fast for your age, and have eyesight better than 20/20 uncorrected...then stock fitting is a complete waste of money IMO.

If you have poor eyesight or wear glasses and/or contacts and can't move too fast, then it may help....?....That so called perfect fit changes from summer to winter with the clothes....

This is just my opinion, others will vary for sure.

I have a lot of shotguns and none of them are fitted. I do use a removable leather slip on to protect the butt plate and or butt checkering as I set the gun down while hunting. Most were bought used, but all have LOP at or over 14.25" as I am tall with long arms.

I've seen an awful lot of men who can pick up any unfamiliar gun and shoot it accurately and consistently, so I think shooting and practicing is the most important factor with any gun.

Regards,

I can't speak to AYAs. But I have had 2 bespoke guns made to my specs by Verney-Carron. A 20ga game gun and 12ga Pigeon/Clays gun. In both cases the guns have made me a better shooter.

As Doug said, other opinions will vary. Mine does. I personally think a fitted gun is far more enjoyable to use than one that doesn't fit and you have to compensate for the poor fit when you use the gun.

But a fitted gun only makes sense if you have a proper and consistent mount. If you do and if you like the AyA 16 ga then go for it! Amortize the thousand bucks over the years you expect to use the gun and it becomes trivial!

By the way, is the 16 ga AyA build on a 20 ga frame? Have you shot a 16 ga AyA?
The AyA #2 is a great shotgun I have a 20 ga that I use a lot and love. But I do not like the 12 ga. Big handling and feel difference. Make sure you try out a 16ga before you drop the nickel.

I wouldn't know how to order a fitted gun. Fitted for what? In October I'm after ruffed grouse, practically in my shirtsleeves. In November, around 8C for ducks and geese, it's light jacket and nylon chest waders. In December, it's heavy jacket, white smock, heavy neoprene chest waders. No particular specification meets all those conditions. I suspect most bespoke is affectation.

Thanks for the advice, I will definitely look into the frames. I know fieldsport has a few different #2s I can mess around with before ordering mine if I go that route.

I plan to only use this gun for grouse hunting and skeet ( practicing for grouse)

I am thinking that I will have it fitted wearing what I would be on a chilly grouse day, and then add on one of those removable orvis leather slip on pads for when Im at the skeet range or hutning in warm weather.

Drop and cast are much more important than LOP when it comes to gun fit. LOP may affect how well you can mount the gun, but when it comes to shooting where you are looking, too much drop or too much cast are a bigger issue than a stock that is too short.

Cast and drop can be fixed by bending potentially - my success on that front has varied, as it seems to depend on the wood involved and the amount of change needed. If the gun in question is close to your dimensions, then bending may be an option.

If your are going to order one, I would second the suggestion to have it made on a 20 ga. frame.

It depends ....

Firstly - I have to completely disagree with the post that says you will shoot no better with a fitted gun and stock fitting is a waste of money. I happen to believe quite the opposite. So do most of the worlds shooting coaches, best gunmakers, most if not all gunsmiths and the vast majority of thinking shooters.

You WILL shoot better with a properly fitted gun - and IT IS money well spent.

Secondly, if you are fairly conventionally sized, need a standard(ish) LOP, and are right handed/right eyed, I would buy a standard stock gun - and go to a good gunfitter and have it altered to fit.

If however you need a very long LOP, or other unusual dimensions, it would be worth thinking about a custom made gun.

What I would do FIRST is visit a good gunfitter, get some measurements, discuss the issue with the gun fitter and see if its practical to alter a standard stock gun. If not, you have to weigh up having a custom built item. Remember that you can see the wood of a standard gun before alteration and choose the wood from stock. To choose a blank and have it made for you will be expensive and involve a long wait.

See that gunfitter first - if necessary more than one - and talk it through with them - as they are experts at this sort of thing.

JohnfromUK

Well said.

Most definitely you will benefit from shooting a gun fitted properly, all else being equal (proper mount,etc.).

I proved it to myself recently making a stock for myself. Starting out with the comb a little high and fat, I took it to the patterning board. It was interesting to watch the pattern move across until it was where it needed to be.

I make no secret of being able to shoot a gun well enough to adapt to one that isn't right. Anyone who's shot with me will attest to that.....

What do you expect your "fitted" stock dimensions would be?

I really dont know. I am 5'11" and slim. I weigh 155 lbs.

Brian Bilinski at Fieldsport is a a pretty experienced gunfitter. He should agree to apply their fitting fee against any gun you buy from them. I would suggest getting fitted and then figuring out if one of their in-stock models fits (or can be made to fit) and if not then consider ordering one from AyA.

My crystal ball says your gun should measure 1.5x2.25x14 7/8 with 1/8-inch of cast, the direction depending on which shoulder you want to use.

I will save you some money
1. Fly to Sky Harbor during Arizona Paradise Season; now through March
2. Shuttle to the Fairmont Scottsdale Princess
3. Send spouse to Scottsdale Fashion Square
4. Go to William Larkin Moore http://williamlarkinmoore.com/
5. Pick gun off the rack that fits
6. Shoot it a lot
7. Never mind Richard Baxter or Kingsley Brown

You are most welcome, and come during Mearns season and we'll go down to Sonoita
Or come during the Barrett-Jackson, Gooding & Co., Russo & Steele, and Bonhams auctions in Jan and spend some real money

Richard Baxter (1615-1691), A Christian Directory, Part 1, Chapter IV, �Directions Against Covetousness�
"Be more careful to use what you have, than to get more."

I agree with John. While a good shot who understands his shooting style and the fit of guns can compensate for guns that do not fit, he will never shoot anywhere near as well with an ill fitting gun consistently. You need to be able to shoot instinctively with little focus on the gun when in a hot spot. If the gun is shooting two feet under where you think it is at twenty yards, you will suffer from poor shooting.

Sometimes you find guns that are just about where you need hem to be and little or no adjustment is required. You will go through many before you luck out and find that one that works for you.

Getting a gun that is close and making final adjustments will have a good effect on your shooting. As others have said, drop is more important than LOP, which can be altered by extending or retracting the left hand.

As for buying an AYA..... well you all know my opinion there so I'll shut up now!

I believe the difference between a high condition used 16-ga. AyA No. 2 vs. ordering a new one is closer to $2K than it is $1K.

I think most of the responders are dancing around the same point.

A gun that fits you properly, fits you. It doesn't matter if it was custom made for you, came from a cardboard box that way, came from the internet or came from wheretheheckistan that way. If you had a good idea of the dimensions that fit you, you may find that an off-the-rack gun is perfect for you, or it might be within possibility to fit it to you (stock bending, comb shaving, butt cutting, etc.). You sound like you're pretty average in stature and general construction, so many off-the-rack guns are likely to be good fits. Spending money for a custom gun won't make it fit better than an off-the-rack gun with a proper fit. But it will teach you your dimensions and feel of a proper fit.

I don't mean to hijack this thread from the original poster, but since ya'll are discussing gun fitting in general, I have a question:

If a shooter has been measured/fitted for an O/U, will the stock measurments of the O/U transfer directly to a SxS gun?

I have heard that they're completely different..

They are different. They will also be different for a smaller bore and a larger bore (think 28-boe and 8-bore). To be completely accurate you need to be fitted for a particular gun an the fitter needs to see you shoot that gun too as eye dominance and shooting style are key factors.

A proper fitting is always the best course of action, whether you buy custom to you or modify one already done.

That said fitting is an art.

First it depends on the shooter consistently shooting in one style or another. If you don't mount the gun consistently then fitting is a waste of time.

Second fitting works best for firing with similar clothing on similar targets. You can't expect the fitting done in a light shirt will fit the same as when you have are wearing a parka. Nor can you expect if your fitting was for upland shooting going away targets up close that it will be the same for Tower Shooting.

Lastly the fitter varies both in his skill in determining what works best for you and your situation. The previous poster is correct about O/U fitting not transferable to SxS as the guns have different recoil dynamics.

Once a gun is right for you and you are performing well with it stay with it. I have had four guns fitted over the years, two have been resounding successes and I cannot be happier. One was ok (I probably did not shot it enough and it is gone to a new home now) and one the verdict is out still (because I do not shot it enough).

I have been very happy with the money I spent getting fitted. At the end of the day you are the only judge as to whether you are shooting the gun you have properly or not. This game is part science, part art, and within that psychological.

Now comes the question of applying your fitted dimensions to a newly built gun, versus bending a gun already on hand. I would feel comfortable with either course if money was not a big deal. I say that because there is a possibility that the bespoke gun may have slightly different handling characteristics and though likely close in fit, might still need fine tuning of being bent just a bit. Then again a gun brought off the rack and bent could need fine tuning as well or even spring back a bit and need rebending.

The comment that practice is the most important aspect of shotgunning is in the ballpark. Fitting is the polish, targets shot is the body upon which the polish is applied.

Lastly the difference of $1,000 dollars for the gun is like the difference of $200 for a hunting dog versus $1,000. Over the life of the gun or dog if you hold onto it and hunt for years the money you spend feeding it, hunting it, and caring for it will dwarf the difference. If you have the money spend it wisely, but don't be penny cheap consider the whole investment. If the $1,000 is too dear then gamble but the bending will eat some of the saving. I often joke that my guns may be worth far more than my truck, but the money and time spent playing with them is twenty times their value.

There are several good books on fitting or with discussions of fitting, this include Michael Yardley's Gunfitting , the Quest for Prefection, Arthur Hearn's Shooting And Gunfitting, Tom Deck's Orvis Guide to Gunfitting, and there are others I do not recall.

1.All people shoot better with a properly fitted gun. A talented few can shoot well with almost anything but they will shoot even better with a fitted gun.

2.You have to establish a proper & consistent gun mount & shooting style before your ideal dimensions can be determined.

3.Select an instructor or fitter that teaches the shooting style you want to use.

4.Off the rack guns may or may not be adaptable to your ideal dimensions as there are limitations in adjusting drop, cast & L.O.P. & balance is a consideration also which has limitations in how much you can change it on an existing gun.

5.I agree that L.O.P. is the least important dimension as you can compensate somewhat by adjusting the forward hand position. that said, once you have established a proper gun mount you will most likely shoot better with a longer length of pull than you ever thought you needed.

6. Read everything Mike Yardley, Chris Batha, Robert Churchill & others have written about the subject of gunfitting & the gunmount.

M. Yardley's little book is really worth the read.

Dig
I'm curious about your statement on different fit for different bore sizes. Can you eloborate?

I just thought I would mention that once you have had your gun built to fit at some expense the gun�s vital statistics stays the same so it is only the correct fit at that point in time, but you as a living being change so as you grow older and put on that old enemy weight and that little twinge of arthritis your gun will not fit your frame as well as it once did. So once you go down the path of gun fitting expect to have it done a number of times during your shooting career.

At today's prices, a new AYA #2 would be about the last gun I would consider. I paid $2600 for my last one, about the right price, in my opinion. Reverend Drew, you are the man. Great post. Bill Murphy

I just left Griffin and Howe's web site and thought this banner on their home page might surmise for the Original author, an answer to his question.

From their home page:

ADVANTAGES OF A PROPER GUN FIT
Gun will shoot exactly where you point it
Head and eye correctly positioned to rib
No adjustment time to an unfit gun stock
Transfer your concentration to the target, not the shotgun
Hold the recoil to a bare minimum
Reduce your fatigue factor
Increase confidence
Significant shooting score and game harvest improvement

In my opinion, the more factors you know as to "fits" and the better you know them the more likely the gun is to please you. Too many guys take a random walk through guns during their life, never considering what it is about each gun that attracts them. IMO, you will spend enough on guns that you should learn something from each one and each new purchase should take you a step closer to the best you can do in your life.

DDA