doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Elephant in the room - CSMC Model 21 O/U

I had heard this might be a possibility and now it looks like CSMC is actually following through with it. I don't have my Model 21 book handy but didn't Winchester already try this?

http://connecticutshotgun.com/m21ou/M21ouFAQ/m21oufaq.html

I'm not sure what to think of it yet. The more I look at the field grade the more I like it. How many O/U shotgun models can one company make and what is next?

I like it better than the SxS model.

Well they should at least call it a Model......

2
1

A cute $10K gimmick.

Here's a youtube link describing the gun:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmX-2yuqhds&feature=youtu.be

CSMC hater. It starts at $2995.
JR

Looks to be a nice gun at the prices for the different grades, but it is pretty easy to see what they did here. Probably a smart move actually. I think it should have been called something other than the Model 21, however. Model 221, or Model 2-1 perhaps?
JR

How does the lock up work? I can't find any specifically addressing that. From the video, it looks to be standard Brescia underlug with no top bolts.

I wonder if they will offer DTs and a solid rib at some point.

Doverham,
You can figure out what they have done here if you look at their last offering. Easy to see.
JR

I may have to have a grade 6 with 32" barrels and a leather pad, even if it is an I*******s with a blued, differently machined frame. Actually, a Standard with upgrade wood might be better.
JR

I always suspected that back in the Great Depression as both Winchester and Remington were working on double barrel designs there was a gentleman's handshake and Winchester went side by side and Remington went over/under. We see the prototype Winchester over/under and Louis Stiennon's patents No. 2,095,297, 2,095,296 and 2,106,416 in Schwing's book and at the Cody Firearms Museum in the BBHC.

Several of C.C. Loomis' patents that were applied to the Model 32, actually picture a side by side, and Dennis Sinita showed me the Loomis prototype side by side at the Remington Museum at Ilion a couple of decades ago.

I wish CSMC would have designed it similar to the Model 21 SxS and put the barrel selector in the trigger rather than in the safety.

I like it. Especially the funeral look of the standard model. Short, though, at 14 3/8" over a 1" pad on a 20ga. No way to lengthen that aesthetically. I'd like 14 3/8" over a hard buttplate; would allow for lots of options on LOP, including the Winchester pad if someone wanted it.

Obviously no one has picked up on what I alluded to in a previous post: it's an Inverness in Winchester get up, with a little differently machined receiver that is blued, and a little different stock design. Plain as day to me, and good marketing by CSMC.
JR

I think hat's what Doverham meant by "...standard Brescia underlug..."

It's a B. Rizzini made to look like a stacked-bbl 21.

It's as American as a bowl of Rigatoni alla Carbonara with a side of Coke.

OWD

I hope you're wrong, but suspect you are right; after all, they are still tooled up for the Inverness. Were the innards of the same family (such as the Winchester 101/23), this project would have potential. I doubt the barrels will be of M21 quality either.

I wouldn't worry about the quality of the barrels, GF1. I think the gun will be very nice all the way 'round. Like I've already mentioned, a 20 ga with 32" barrels, upgrade wood and a leather covered pad has got me a thinkin'.
JR

''What is Cyro PatternTM?: This is a trademark process by Connecticut Shotgun Mfg. Co. After the barrel blank is gun drilled and turned, the barrels are put into a very deep freeze. This releases any stress that the metal has endured during the forging. This procedure prevents warping and twisting of the tubes, even after firing multiple shells and reheating the barrels. This is the best method that we have found to make sure the tubes remain perfectly straight.''

Now that is a bucket of advertising shit. Cyro, Cryo or maybe Cyrano de Bergerac?

07-14-2008, 10:35 AM
There are only a few specific ferrous alloys which are PROVEN to benefit from cryo treatments. All of these alloys can contain retained austenite at room temperature, which requires cryo treatment to convert to Martensite. None of these alloys are common "gun" materials.

All other claimed benefits are typically based on testimonials, not on any measurable metallurgical properties.

SteveM.


This from the benchrest shooters website. If anybody knows barrels, they do. If I were to buy one it would not be because the barrels were cryo treated.

SRH

John - I'm curious. Why exactly does the combination of a 20 bore and 32" barrels appeal to you? Is it for skeet or clays?

They say imitation is the most sincere form of flattery. Well, that must say alot about Rizzini.

John hit the nail right on the head. This isn't an over/under model 21. This is a redone Inverness, which of course is a copy of the Rizzini (who also just so happened to have a model named the Inverness that CSMC used to import). They simply shaped, styled, and finished it like a Winchester 21. Hence the safety and barrel selector and lock up being the way they are.

None the less, it is a nice gun and I'd love to have one.

Gotta give it to Tony. Genesis business move.

Adam

I wonder if the steel grip cap will survive into production. It did not in the Inverness

Sporting clays and dove, what I like to refer to as a "long-range puffer". The swing dynamics of a 20 gauge and 32" barrels on a well-balanced o/u (or sxs for that matter) are so satisfying on a clays course or in a dove field.
JR

My Inverness is a bit barrel heavy with 30" tubes. 32" will likely need more weight in the stock. The stock is thin on the Inverness. They may need to make the stock a bit beefier to have better balance

Oh, and btw, Model 21 Winchester shotguns have chopper lump barrels, hence their excellence. If CSMC is failing to make these O/U with demibloc or choppers, then they are clearly failing to meet the Winchester standard of the Model 21.

I think that's a deal if you want a 20.I assume it is all made in America.They need some type of roll stamp engraving on each side of the locks and make a 12 in 30inch and I'm in for 3000. plus maybe a stock upgrade.

Many Thanks, John.

I know coulda woulda is fun. But, The boys Tony and Lou will be at Las vegas with this puppy in Jan. So start shopping for a nice Christmas for the war department. Then you can order away after you have looked at it. Or not. But no whining if you miss the intro deadline and see the price go up.
Here is a speculation for you will Tony file the sides so you have a nice pregnant reciever as in some of the early 21 SxS. Fyour grade 6 or grand american.
Happy holidays and ponderings.
John Mc

I get all the emails from CSMC I assume everyone else does, but the mailings I used to get by post are nearly gone completely.

I can't for the life of me recall an "announcement" of this latest offering. I mean, the information distribution for the Inverness was massive, a barrage complete with multiple emails as well as brochures mailed through the post.

Does this ring true with anyone else, or is this a case of failed memory or insta-delete from my emails? Has an actual "cut-off" of the introductory offer been stated?

No pre announcement that I saw.

I would be happy to see my Inverness that was PIF.

It should be shipping any day now.

I got the email on it this morning and friends have reported the catalogue with this "new Winchester styled Inverness" arriving in yesterday's post.

Yes indeed, I also received the notice in my email this morning. Impatience is wasted energy. Speaking of which, where the hell is my winter DGJ?????(just kidding, folks)

Maybe they could make a model 21 pump gun or even a model 21 semi-auto.

Did y'all notice this one has the long tangs without any extra charge?

Glad I cancelled my order after they had my PIF for a year. Handled another one in Tulsa the other day. Besides the fact it wouldn't close (just a minor point) it just didn't do anything to excite me. No "soul", just another machine made O/U.

Original 21 marketing strategy trumpeted strength, durability, etc. Regarding aesthetics we read about "clean lines, ruggedness", etc. I don't think John Olin would roll over in his grave if anyone suggested aesthetics were secondary. To repeat, that's how they were marketed. So it's not bashing 21s.

I like 21s, still have my 20 ga guns. They are great at the range, and can handle fast 1 oz field loads all day every day, Sundays included.

But here we take an O/U action that is already plenty strong, add 21-"styled" reinforcements to simulate the least appealing aspect of the original. Or are those really lightening cuts not made on the Inverness?

As for reinforcements on autos, it's already been done by Colt (M16A2, and A3 frame reinforcements). Of course, those were to add strength in the event the butt was used as a sledge. Kinda doubt Tony was thinking along those lines.

Sam

Naming this gun the Model 21 o/u is a marketing move by CSM and I understand that, but it is going to cause confusion down the road. It certainly won't have the impact of John Olin's sxs, but it will, at some point, have to be explained when they are brought up in conversation.

"What's that guy shooting down there?"

"Oh, he's shooting a Model 21."

"Nice, I like those sxs's."

"Oh, it's not a sxs, it's an o/u."

"Huh, I never knew Winchester made an o/u AND a sxs called the Model 21."

"Oh, they didn't, this gun is made by Connecticut Shotgun."

"Who?"
JR

M-21 pumps?

M-12s already have frame reinforcements front and rear, albeit no points. Extend the rear reinforcements....reverse the order of model digits....12 becomes 21...

Oh, and M-42s have them, too. The sideplate would be a minor complication nowadays. Lessee....42 divided by 2 is....

Sam (coming to you from the Bermuda triangle, Area 51 to be specific)

So, if you take a field grade and file the bolsters off the side of the action and round the bottom edges of the receiver you would have a 21 "Custom". Or an Inverness with no engraving. I am sure it is a nice gun but I just do not see the point.
Regards,
Jeff

They should make a 21 side by side reproduction and sell same price as the over under.I would be interested in a Grand American. Bobby