doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com LC Smith 20 gauge serial number out of range

I checked the reference here, and the one at the LC Smith site, and according to both my serial number doesn't exist. It is 2057xx, and according to the chart that number its too high for 1945, but the numbers start over at #1 for 1946?

It is a 20 gauge field grade, 28" barrels. Other than having the color case polished off it is in very nice (refinished) condition.

Any ideas? Just a very late 1945 gun?
Thanks,
CHAZ

Chaz, I would definitely say that it is a late 1945 gun. This was probably lying around unfinished when the company was bought out by Marlin. Since it was serial numbered already, it was assembled as being made by L.C. Smith, Hunter Arms.
Starting in 1946, under the new name of L.C. Smith Gun Company, a subsidiary of Marlin Firearms Co., the serial numbers started over again with an "S" prefix followed by FW (Featherweight) as the Regular frame was not available now.

A letter from our Records keeper will/should show when it was made and finished.

Chaz,

Your serial number is NOT out of range......your gun will have the raised sighting plane high rib and no signature line on the left barrel, only the right barrel. No mention of Hunter Arms anywhere on the gun.

The L.C. Smith records specifically show that the L.C. Smith Gun Company (Subsidiary of the Marlin Firearms Company) made the following guns that were already serial numbered and ARE NOT prefixed with the usual "S" as are the other 58,000 or so guns they made....the records show the following:

December 21, 1945 to January 19, 1948
From serial number 202,968 to serial number 206,909
These guns HAD NO "S" PREFIX.....

Field: 1,176
Ideal: 121
Premier Skeet: - 0
Specialty: 32
Crown: 9
Skeet Special: 1


That is the problem with the so called L.C. Smith site, not very informative, in my honest opinion..........You would be much better off searching any L.C. Smith records data through the Cody Firearms Museum, where all the "original" records are kept.......and they answer a live phone during business hours.....307-578-4031....or http://www.bbhc.org/firearms/records.cfm click on research, then firearms.


Regards,

"Your gun will have the raised sighting plane high rib and no signature line on the left barrel, only the right barrel."
Yes and Yes.

Are the production numbers you have listed for that time frame just 20 gauge guns, or is that a total of all gauges?

Thanks very much for the info. I believe the gun has been completely refinished, so I probably won't spring for the research letter on a "shooter."
Thanks again,
CHAZ

The production numbers listed are for 'all' gauges....

The Cody Firearms Museum can supply you with a "really nice" factory letter on special paper and original letterhead for $70.00 without any membership or obligations.......the letter will typically supply you with, if entered in the ledger, date of start, date of pattern, date of finish, date of shipping, LOP, chokes as original, grade, barrel length, where shipped and any other pertinent information listed in the records for your specific serial number...........

I letter all my guns whenever possible and frame the letters, Winchester, Marlin, L.C. Smith etc.....Cody has lot's of original records for various makers.

Regards,

PA24,
Your recommendation regarding the original posters' question are totally inaccurate and misleading when it comes to what the LCSCA letters contain. For your information, the LCSCA records are EXACTLY what appears in the Cody records--- with the exception of extensive, painstakingly additional research recently done and published by the LCSCA Archivist. As a consequence, if accurate, up-to-date information is needed on Smith guns, the LCSCA records are where it's at !
Back to the original posters' question, JDW's answer is most likely correct. I recently researched a OO 20 ga dated 1912 that appears in the records in a midst of 20 ga. Fields---- not an uncommom occurence during the "transition".

As usual Laxcoach, you don't know what you are talking about....JDW makes note, as copied above, that Hoofs gun was made by Hunter Arms.....read the post if you can word for word.....IT WAS NOT MADE BY HUNTER ARMS....It was made by the new L.C.Smith Gun Company owned by Marlin, not Hunter Arms.

I reference Cody Letters NOT your LC club letters, which are a joke IMO, so is your website, again, read the words. Good Luck patting each other on the back......

As a contributor to the LCSCA site, please share what I can do to be more "informative" Doug http://www.lcsmith.org/faq/faqhome.html

BTW: I looked in the back of Dr Jim's new book http://www.lcsmith.org/publications/books.html and found 74 articles listed; one by 'Douglas Scott'. Is that you?

Well, let's see now RevDoc....I know you can read, unlike your buddy above.......



Such a simple question as this man , Chaz, was looking for, could not be pulled up with the correct answer...what does that say about all your accurate information gathering and record keeping..........?......Not much I would say.....

So for openers:

A) You could start, one would think, by having COMPLETE AND ACCURATE serial number information available for folks researching their guns.

B) Then you could probably continue forward by having live bodies who can answer phones during daylight hours to answer questions and specifics, so when folks are at gun shows where you are not they can gain information about a potential purchase....which is exactly what Cody does......see section C.....

C) And if you really want to be a contributor to the great L.C. Smith owners you could offer partial information from your records for a standard fee structure that did not require membership. If a buyer at a gun show wanted to call during daylight hours, as an example, and find out the factory barrel length ONLY of a specific L.C., Folsom, Hunter Special before buying said gun your contributors would be available, or better yet online information of this type would be open to purchase 24/7. Gee, what a novel idea.

Doug, this gun was assembled by the L.C. Smith Gun Company, not made by them. This was made by Hunter Arms but not assembled in the time the companies traded hands. The L.C. Smith Gun Co. put together all the unfinished guns they now inherited.

This gun would have the Single Sighting plane that was first put on guns around 1939 as a $5.00 option, starting in 1940 it was a standard feature.

David,

The receivers were already numbered, but not completed. Completed WIP inventory was shipped out first thing, then the first 'S' guns were completed in March of 1946.

The barrels were not made under Hunter supervision, this is why there is only one signature line on the barrels, after the start up in January of 1946 on existing WIP.

I have had several of these transition guns starting in the serial 202,900 range. The new L.C. Smith Gun Company took the WIP (work in process) and trickled them into production here and there for several YEARS, for obvious reasons, building the barrels and finishing the guns as they went along.

This is why it took them 3 years to dispose of the WIP, which was very small in comparison to the number of guns that Marlin was producing at the time.....

Chaz's gun has a serial of 205,7XX, very near the END of the WIP production, and therefore was most likely made in 1947, quite some time after Hunter was making anything.....So I disagree with you that his gun was made by Hunter, probably only the unfinished receiver.....

Wrong again Doug

The serial number range from 205700 to 205799 contains 44 20 gauges. All of them were finished in 1946.
Jim Stubbendieck

A Research Letter would provide additional information
http://www.lcsmith.org/shotguns/researchdivision.html

"If a buyer at a gun show wanted to call during daylight hours, as an example, and find out the factory barrel length ONLY of a specific L.C., Folsom, Hunter Special before buying said gun your contributors would be available..."
You are aware that the LCSCA is an all volunteer organization? Please join and assume that responsibility, or help recruit additional members who are willing to do so.

YOU ASKED WHAT YOU COULD DO TO MAKE IT BETTER AS A CONTRIBUTOR......I responded to that request.......now you just come back with more "chatter/double talk".........so no progress as I see it. Volunteer group, yes, you don't have to be Dick Tracy to figure that one out.....

Chaz tried your simple record check and found zero, now you come back with Stubbendick information that he could not find on his initial search...........why is that....?

I do not see anything now or in the past that would encourage me to ever join your volunteer group.....no thanks.....

Why are you so angry Doug? You obviously appreciate Smith guns, and have knowledge that you could share. Why not join and work to make the LCSCA better? Come to the Annual Meeting, express your opinions, and enjoy The Southern? Or work with Dr Jim and write a "Smith Gun Identification & Serialization" book?
I can't speak for Dr Jim, but he is in a difficult position. Why should he provide information to posters of the Forum, for free, when others have paid for a Research letter; information for which Cody also requires membership or a fee?

It makes sense to me that Marlin would want to get these guns completed and out the door. Making about 10,000 guns a year it would take less than than two months. Plus, how many barrels in the white did Hunter have at the sellout? With 1300 receivers I would say quite a few.

PA24,
Since you have identified yourself as the "New Star on the Horizon" when it comes to L C Smiths, I suggest that you give your phone number here so that all could take advantage of your vast knowledge, thereby avoiding costs associated with ordering letters from the LCSCA/ Cody.
The OP posed this question on the Smith forum as well, and has been answered in a timely fashion by our Records Keeper and---guess what-- the information was free !
BTW, try to get an answer to a question about a Fox, Parker, Lefever, etc with a phone call. It isn't going to happen because they are volunteer associations also!
It's a shame that individuals like yourself and the "Smith Guru" from CAL go out of their way to discredit the efforts of a few who truly want to help collectors with questions. I suggest that you go to lcsmith.org and read the header on the Home Page. Perhaps you'll rethink your attitude----

Wrong again Drew.

Interesting that your comprehension skills do not allow you to read the posts as they progress and grip what is being said.

1. Nobody ever suggested free information, just the opposite, a fee schedule for partial information I think was the term.

2. Your website shows basic years of production for L.C. Smith produced guns, EXCEPT the WIP serial number gun sequence shown on a previous post. Again, the question is, why is that.....?.....Inaccurate serial number information on your web site....?....An oversight....?.....Don't Care....?.....Too busy with a day job.....?.....

3. I did not initiate this thread, merely responded to it indicating this mans serial number does indeed exist and posted FACTS, then listened to you and your club cronies dive in with some facts and some b.s.....

4. You folks go on and on about the accuracy and informative nature of your organization that you are so proud of, yet such a simple oversight was brought out by this thread......and you still don't appear to understand what the initial posters request was....i.e., your web site showed his serial number did not exist for whatever reason.........

I am a member of the Cody Museum and appreciate their professionalism and wealth of factual knowledge and suggest anyone who needs L.C. Smith information contact the Cody Firearms Museum.

As Wonko says, 'Have a Day'.......

Doug, since you say you have owned a number of these guns, do you have a Cody letter on one completed in 1947-48? If so would you give the serial number?

Just one of the cronies.

"That is the problem with the so called L.C. Smith site, not very informative, in my honest opinion..."

The editorial comments started with you Doug. And yes, I am very appreciative of the hard work Dr Jim, Tom Archer, and others have put into the LCSCA site, and would like it to be better.
Still not sure why you are so hostile to the organization. Supporting the Cody Museum and the LCSCA are not mutually exclusive.