doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Another "what loads" post, 20 gauge LC Smith?

I just got a 20 gauge LC Smith, circa 1946. It appears to have been refinished at some point (it had blued lockplates!! polishing them off is the first thing I did). It looks to me like the head of the stock has been glasses, at least at the contact points. Everything seems tight and on face, maybe the slightest wiggle with the forend off, but just barely.

Should I be afraid to fire an occasional 1 ounce heavy game load? I frequently load a heavier shell in the left barrel whenever I hunt. I want to use the gun, and pheasants are on the menu right now so I would like the heavier shell as a back up.

Thanks,
CHAZ

Chaz, by this time in 1946, your gun should be chambered for 2 3/4" shells and should have a stamp on the barrels water table stating so.
If the stock has been glass bedded, I would say a 1 ounce load would be ok.

I had just assumed by that time it would have 2 3/4" chambers. It isn't marked as such on the water table, but I just checked and it is 2 3/4".
CHAZ

Chaz,

I would suggest you stick with 3/4 or 7/8 oz loads for that 20 L.C., the extra few shot won't make much of a difference anyway, only add stress to old wood IMHO.

The barrel flats 'will not' be marked on your gun with chamber length, I'll let the experts tell you why.

Best Regards,

Well Doug, you seem to be very knowledgeable, please tell us why.

Assuming this is a double triggered Smith, and of course, a Featherweight series (FW or FWE)- here's what I would do- get a set of 20 gauge snap caps, put a 1 ounce load in the right barrel and a snap cap with a peice of masking tape over the primer in the left barrel, and test fire it- then do the reverse, firing only the left barrel with the one ouncer and the "dummy" taped snap cap in the right barrel- to check against possible doubling from the extra recoil "jar" of the King Konger loads in a light 20--

I would expect the gun to be marked 2 3/4" on the barrels themselves, not the flats. Recently traded for a late 16ga Sterlingworth (39-40 vintage by SN) and that's where it was marked. On the other hand, my 1927 vintage Ithaca NID (with 2 3/4" chambers) has no marks at all on the barrels, where I would expect to find the 2 3/4". Probably because the barrels have been reblued. Hoof, anything at all marked on the barrels of your Elsie? If not, especially given the other modifications it's undergone, I'd suggest that a reblue probably lost your original markings as well.

Larry, all the L.C. Smiths I have seen with marking as to chamber length have been on the barrels water flats below the serial number.
This one is from 1949


On earlier 20 gauge and 16's that have no markings on the flats and are 2 3/4" chambers, were done outside the factory and so not stamped as so. Earlier guns had no stampings as to chamber length except some very early Fulton 10 gauges with Chambers 3 Inches in an oval and 12 gauge Longrange/Wildfowl guns with Chambers 3 Inches in an oval. These are the norm, and there were others so marked that were done by the factory.

I got to "blood" the old girl today, and on the first pheasant I was glad to have that ounce of number 4's in the left barrel. My gun does not have any indication of chamber length marked anywhere I can find, but they do measure 2 3/4". I thought I read somewhere Hunter Arms switched to 2 3/4" on subgauges around 1936? It has 28" barrels and weighs 6 pounds ten ounces empty. I don't think the stock was cut, the extender is on there because I am 6'4".



CHAZ

I have no idea what Doug's agenda is now, but lots of examples of chamber markings here http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/19686599

This 1928 20g Field grade with 2 3/4" stamp is courtesy of Jim Akins.



It is not clear if this was a special order stamp or if placed after chamber lengthening.
20 gauge chambers were lengthened from 2 1/2" to 2 3/4" about 1936, and usually were NOT stamped thereafter, by Hunter Arms or Marlin, unless 3". David's is interesting.

I have never seen a chamber length stamp on the barrels. This a Marlin era 20g



I personally would glasbed the head of the stock and then shoot 3/4 or 7/8 oz. loads at targets, and 1 oz. loads for pheasants without concern.

Will await Doug Somebody's correction of our collective confusion, but believe this childish game is unbecoming and have no interest in participating

Drew, the picture I posted is a 12 gauge. For some reason they stamped 12's also. Kind of funny since 12 gauge "elsies" were always 2 3/4"

In that transition period for the 20 gauge 2 1/2" to 2 3/4" I have seen them stamped to let people know that the chambers were lengthened. The same for the 16 gauge in late 1939.

This thread made me curious, and the gun safe was already open, so I went and checked. My Marlin built 20ga Field Grade, SN FWS 9445 is not marked as to chamber length, but has 2 3/4" chambers. However another Field Grade, FWS 30601 and an Ideal Grade FW SN IE 31151 are marked on the barrel flat opposite the serial number as in the example that David posted. I have hunted extensively with 9445 and 31151 with nothing but 1 oz loads. The only time they see 7/8 oz loads is on the skeet field. Incidentally, I also have a 16ga built in 1933 that has 2 3/4" chambers and is marked with the chamber length in the style of the 3" markings on the LR/WF guns. My 1936 .410 is marked 3" with the same style stamp. Just proves again that you can never say never on an LC Smith.

Interesting. Must've been confusing Fox markings with LC's. Darn.

Re the conversion to 2 3/4", didn't happen on Elsie 16's, I'm pretty sure, until about 1939-40. I think they were about the last of the "classic" American doubles to change over to the 2 3/4" standard.

Larry, Tom has a 1933 that has 2 3/4" chambers marked, I have a 1939 with the Single Sighting Plane that still has 2 9/16" chambers. As Tom said, "never say never".

When that gun was built most guys were stuffing stout hunting loads in those Elsies, not lite target loads. I have put about 5,000 rounds through a couple of Elsies with no worries at all. All of mine have had the head of the stock glass bedded and I make sure the lock plates are not tight at the back end. Shoot those 1oz loads and enjoy.
Regards,
Jeff

Tom, I wouldn't say "never" on any of the American classics. But I'm pretty sure a 2 3/4" 16ga from 1933 would have been a special order. If you look in Brophy's book, Appendix C, p. 228, you'll find the Hunter Arms Co diagrams for "regular barrels". Chamber length for the 12 is 2.75"; for the 16, 2.5625". Drawing dated 4-6-38.

Larry: There is no doubt that the 1933 16ga is a special order, and I am sorry that I wasn't clear about that. I bought the gun because it was a field grade with ejectors, a somewhat unusual configuration. It wasn't until later, after some dis assembly that I discovered the chamber markings and that the receiver had been drilled in several places to remove weight, and that the barrels were older Belgian made tubes. Some old bird hunter knew exactly what he wanted and had it made up to the specs he desired.I have a friend who has an LC Smith with the lightening holes drilled exactly the same as mine.

Lightening holes on a Field grade regular frame 12g started July 1939, shipped November 1939

Researcher has made a good case that Parker and Fox held their chambers short by about an 1/8" So a chamber for 2-3/4" shells would be 2-5/8" long and a chamber for 2-9/16
would be 2-7/16" long.

Here is one of Researcher's posts about chamber lengths:

Link

Chamber drawings in Brophy's book Plans & Specifications for the L C Smith show chamber lengths to be exact length for the shell, no shortening with them. All of my 12 gauge Lefevers also have either 2 5/8" or 2 3/4", little doubt in my mind those with 2 5/8" chambers were intended for that length of shell. It is noted that SAAMI chamber specs from a time after the 2 3/4" shell had become standard in all three gauges allowed for a minimum chamber length of 2.614" in 12 gauge but 2 3/4" in both 16 & 20 gauges. It is my understanding this short chambering was due to a request from Trap shooters. Do we have any real evidence it was used in gauges other than the 12. Also do we have knowledge of earlier Parkers or Foxes with chambers shorter than a nominal 2 5/8" in length or were these short chambered guns all intended for the 2 3/4" shell. Inquiring minds want to know.

"It is my understanding this short chambering was due to a request from Trap shooters." Could you please elaborate Miller?

Turn of the century Live Bird and Inanimate Target shooters frequently used longer shells for additional wadding

The 'Machine Loaded' shells and components available in the 1895 Montgomery Ward & Co. catalog
http://books.google.com/books?id=zWel51IwQ2AC&pg=PA473&lpg#v=onepage&q&f=false
12g Winchester �Leader� and �Blue Rival� NPEs are offered in 3-inch length. UMC 12g Green �Trap� NPEs are offered in 2 7/8 and 3-inch lengths.

http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1897/VOL_30_NO_12/SL3012023.pdf
"Cast Iron Medal", emblematic of championship of America, and a purse of $200, was shot on Watson�s Shooting Grounds. R.O. Heikes (using a Winchester 1897 pump) won the match by killing 91 out of 100 birds, taking the Cast Iron Medal and the $200.
Grimm killed 87 out of the 100 birds, using an L. C. Smith gun, 3 1/4 drams Du Pont powder in a 3-inch U. M. C. Smokeless shell, for first barrel, and 3 1/2 drams Du Pont powder in a 3 1/4-inch U. M. C. Trap shell in second barrel, 1 1/4 ounces No. 7 chilled shot in both barrels.

Cashmore Pigeon gun marked 3 1/4" CASES. Unfortunately I do not know the chamber length.

Drew; I don't really recall where this came from, I am thinking it was stated here on this board a few years back. It was mentioned in specific regard to Parkers. It may well have included live bird shooters. It was stated to be that they perceived they got better patterns by this method of chambering. My real question though is was this practice carried out on 12 gauge guns for use with shells shorter than 2 3/4", does anyone have a gun which they perceive to have been intended for use with 2 5/8" shells which only has a 2�" chamber. Also does anyone have 16's & 20's of the era with 2 7/16" & 2 3/8" chambers respectfully. I have a post 1907 16 gauge Lefever with 3" chambers by measure. Though not marked I presume it was intended for use with 3" shells. Definitely both the gun & the shells would have been special order, not something picked up at the corner hardware.
Nash Buckingham wrote of his father having a Greener 12 gauge hammer gun with 3�" chambers in which they fired 3�" shells. This in the 1880's. So yes shells were available in an assortment of lengths & some of those old 3�" shells may well have ended up being fired in a gun having 2 5/8" chambers, but what I am interested in is what guns were actually, intentionally short chambered for the shell "Intended" to be used.

If the wood has been "glassed" at 6lb 10oz that gun should be able to digest occasional 70mm Nitro Mag or turkey load.