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Joined: Feb 2010
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Patrick
You may wish to ask the UK cartridge manufacturer Eley that question. They will have records of their sales. My guess is the cross over from 2 1/2" cartridge sales being most popular to 2 3/4" becoming most bought would give the best indication.
Tim
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Tim,
Thanks - good idea. Do you have contact info for them?
Thanks.
Sincerely, Patrick
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Patrick Web site: http://www.eleyhawkltd.com/Contact E: sales@eleyhawkltd.com Good luck. Tim Edit to add: I looked in Burrard, published 1930. He said "... Continental makers ... often chamber their guns for 2 3/4" cases instead of the ordinary 2 1/2" case ... in (Britain) the standard 2 1/2" 12 bore cartridge is almost universally used"
Last edited by trw999; 01/08/14 05:05 AM.
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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There were certainly a lot of Continental makers still turning out 2 1/2" guns prior to WWII. The difference to which Burrard was referring may be that some Continental makers (Sauer and Francotte are a couple that come to mind) were exporting quite a few guns to the United States prior to WWII--at least quite a few compared to the British shotgun industry--and when they did so, they catered to changes in the American market. As in from short shells to what became the 2 3/4" standard. But many guns that stayed in Europe continued to be chambered for 2 1/2" shells.
Patrick, the British continued to turn out 2 1/2" guns following WWII. Some of the Webley and Scott 700's, for example--a model that did not appear until 1947--were 2 1/2" guns. It's not even all that easy to state exactly when the change occurred in the States, because all manufacturers did not change at the same time, nor did individual manufacturers change all gauges at the same time. For example, LC Smith switched to 2 3/4" as the 12 and 20 gauge standard some years before they did the same in their 16ga guns--which remained short chambered until at least 1939 or 1940. About the only blanket statement that can be made re American guns is that it's not likely any short-chambered guns were produced after WWII, although that does not preclude the possible sale of the occasional leftover short-chambered gun from pre-war days.
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Patrick , I do not think I can help with dating except to share some of my info. I have a Grant Side lever that was rebarrelled by Boss. The Boss ( from Ron L) ledger , from 1904 indicates that the customer of the Grant wanted 2 3 /4 chambers for American " case"...I also own a Purdey SBT gun made in 1929 which is also 2 3/4. In the Purdey History by Dallas, there is a brief discussion of the Trap guns being ordered from the US. This was generally though A & F out if NY. Only 59 SBT were made, and I do not know if they were all 2 3/4. The only picture I have us the one from GI... Here is a picture of the SBT gun, we ( Bob Beach)know it was ordered though A&F....to a NY order in 1929... Resold though A& F in 1930.
Last edited by Condor; 01/08/14 10:04 AM.
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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L. Brown, Condor,
Thanks for the information - and pictures of your beautiful guns, Condor. I think I have my answer. Once I realized the chamber for my gun was only 2 1/2" inches, I thought it might be pre-war - maybe even in the 1920's, which was surprising to me but not inconceivable; however, I can tell now that 2 1/2" chambers continued to be made after the war. The US market was mostly 2 3/4", but England and Europe still made 2 1/2", and I suspect the British influence on gun making in Japan was still relevant, so 2 1/2" were proably continued there as well - at least until Browning and Winchester gained their foot holds. So, I assume my gun is post-WWII - probably in the 1950's.
Thanks.
Sincerely, Patrick
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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While the 2 5/8 inch 12-gauge shell was "standard" in the U.S. from the beginning, when Winchester introduced their Model 1897, it was made for 2 3/4 inch shells. Likewise the Remington Autoloading Shotgun (later Model 11), introduced in 1905 and the Remington Repeating Shotgun (later Model 10), introduced in 1908, were made for 2 3/4 inch 12-gauge shells. In the late 1890s to at least 1905, the U.S. amminition companies were offering smokeless powder loads as heavy as 3 1/4 drams of bulk smokeless powder pushing 1 1/4 ounce of shot in 12-gauge 2 5/8 inch paper shells. By 1910, they had backed off, and the heaviest 2 5/8 inch loads offered were 1 1/8 ounce of shot. From then on one had to go to the 2 3/4 inch or longer shells for 1 1/4 ounce loads. For some time I was under the impression that the extra length paper shotshells came in with the increasing use of smokeless powders in the 1890s, but recently I found this in the 1880 UMC catalogue -- It is a bit hard to read, but 12-gauge 2 5/8 inch paper shells are $10.50 per thousand, and 12-gauge paper shells up to 3 1/4 inch are $12.00 per thousand.
Last edited by Researcher; 01/08/14 01:34 PM.
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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If I recall correctly, the Winchester Model 12 pump was initially introduced as a 2 1/2" 20ga.
Standardization of chamber length in this country took a long time to achieve. The Brits and Europeans, in contrast, were much more settled on 2 1/2"--although there were certainly exceptions, and not only for guns exported to the States.
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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If I recall correctly, the Winchester Model 12 pump was initially introduced as a 2 1/2" 20ga. But the 12-gauge Model 12 was introduced for 2 3/4 inch shells.
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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If I recall correctly, the Winchester Model 12 pump was initially introduced as a 2 1/2" 20ga. But the 12-gauge Model 12 was introduced for 2 3/4 inch shells. Right. All manufacturers did not convert to 2 3/4" as standard at the same time, and individual manufacturers did not convert all gauges to 2 3/4" at the same time. The above is a perfect example of the last half of that statement. And that's what makes determining "when did 2 1/2" end?" a complicated question to answer.
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