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Forums10
Topics38,574
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Apr 29th, 2024
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Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 9,381 Likes: 1
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 9,381 Likes: 1 |
For most part Americans to not true Vo for testing and publishing velocities therefore to obtain actual muzzle velocity 75fps to 100fps must be added to what is printed on the American-made cartridge box.
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Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 460 Likes: 12
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 460 Likes: 12 |
I have been shooting Hull Imperial game 26 gramme No 6 with felt wad this last season through an AyA No 1, AyA Senior and Henry Atkin, all about 6 3/4 lbs.
I have found them an effective and pleasant to shoot cartridge. No interest in the velocity, but they do the job with no recoil issues.
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,544
Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,544 |
I think this is the issue in nutshell.
Once we have selection of shells we know are safe to use in our guns, we experiment with them and settle on those which suit our guns. We don't care much about the figures.
For what it is worth, fro UK game shooting I use mostly Gamebore Pure Gold, Hull High Pheasant and Eley VIP in my 12-bores (No.6) but don't really care what the cartridges are as long as they are 2 1/2" and 28g, 30g. The loads I mention are not 'punchy', they pattern well and to tell the truth, I buy a couple of thousand at the start of each season and never think about what the ammo is doing again.
The guns I use are generally damascus barrelled,1870s hammer guns weighing around 6 3/4 or 7 lbs.
For super high pheasants there are much more powerful loads - see the wider range of Hull shells on the website - it gives data on each of them. I guess no marketing exec is going to launch a low partridge or 'average pheasant' cartridge - too much male ego to deal with!
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,390 Likes: 107
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,390 Likes: 107 |
For most part Americans to not true Vo for testing and publishing velocities therefore to obtain actual muzzle velocity 75fps to 100fps must be added to what is printed on the American-made cartridge box. If you're speaking about true MV--measured at the muzzle--versus the figure furnished by American ammo manufacturers, that's an accurate observation. For example, from John Taylor's very handy book "Shotshells and Ballistics", the 1 1/4 oz load of American 5's or 6's, long the standard for "rough shooting" (walking up pheasants over dogs), measures 1330 fps at 3 feet. At the muzzle, it's 1436 fps. Thus, not much different from the Hull High Pheasant load in terms of velocity.
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Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 602 Likes: 39
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 602 Likes: 39 |
I'm confused by the references to "muzzle velocity" when comparing SAMMI data to CIP data. SAMMI velocity is measured @ 3 feet & is stated so in their published information. I always assumed that US manufacturers published SAMMI standard velocity data & CIP manufacturers published CIP standard velocity data.
I can find several references that CIP velocity is measured at 2.5 meters (8.2 feet) but have not been able to confirm this by any CIP published info I can find.
In looking at published Winchester, Remington, Hull Cartridge, Game Bore, Eley, B&P & Rottweil info, only Rottweil states the distance @ which velocity is measured which is @ 2.5 Meters.
If some manufacturers are taking SAAMI & CIP data & converting it to muzzle velocity w/o stating so comparison with manufacturers that publish data obtained by CIP or SAAMI standards doesn't mean much.
In looking at the offerings by Hull, Game Bore & Eley I was surprised that only Eley offered 1 1/16 OZ (30 gm) loads at
<1300 fps.
In the Modern Shotgun Volume II Burrard states that "So the fact must be faced that a velocity of 1150 fps is the biggest practical increase which can be made for a 12-bore 2 1/2" cartridge" (he is talking about the 1 1/16 oz load in game guns).
I'm thinking he might have been a little conservative on the velocity limit but I'm not positive at what distance the velocity was measured so he is probably not too far off base when compared to 1 1/16 oz Eley Classic Game loads @ 1295 & the B&P High Pheasant @ 1280 fps which are a favorite of mine.
I don't care what load anyone else shoots as long as they effectively kill the game but with the current interest in the high velocity loads I'm finding the traditional loads in the 1200 to 1300 fps range more & more difficult to find.
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 12,743
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 12,743 |
When Burrard spoke of velocity he was generally using the standard "Observed Velocity" which was the average over 20 yds. The standard load of his day of 3 drams & 1 1/16oz shot had an observed velocity of 1050 fps. Converted to MV it was about 1300 fps. That 1150 velocity would have been over 1400 fps & likely pushing that 1450 fps. This was normally stated for #6 shot. If different sizes of shot were given the same MV, they would have different OV, larger shot being higher than smaller shot.
Miller/TN
I Didn't Say Everything I Said, Yogi Berra
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,390 Likes: 107
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,390 Likes: 107 |
I'm confused by the references to "muzzle velocity" when comparing SAMMI data to CIP data. SAMMI velocity is measured @ 3 feet & is stated so in their published information. I always assumed that US manufacturers published SAMMI standard velocity data & CIP manufacturers published CIP standard velocity data.
I can find several references that CIP velocity is measured at 2.5 meters (8.2 feet) but have not been able to confirm this by any CIP published info I can find.
In looking at published Winchester, Remington, Hull Cartridge, Game Bore, Eley, B&P & Rottweil info, only Rottweil states the distance @ which velocity is measured which is @ 2.5 Meters.
If some manufacturers are taking SAAMI & CIP data & converting it to muzzle velocity w/o stating so comparison with manufacturers that publish data obtained by CIP or SAAMI standards doesn't mean much.
In looking at the offerings by Hull, Game Bore & Eley I was surprised that only Eley offered 1 1/16 OZ (30 gm) loads at
<1300 fps.
In the Modern Shotgun Volume II Burrard states that "So the fact must be faced that a velocity of 1150 fps is the biggest practical increase which can be made for a 12-bore 2 1/2" cartridge" (he is talking about the 1 1/16 oz load in game guns).
I'm thinking he might have been a little conservative on the velocity limit but I'm not positive at what distance the velocity was measured so he is probably not too far off base when compared to 1 1/16 oz Eley Classic Game loads @ 1295 & the B&P High Pheasant @ 1280 fps which are a favorite of mine.
I don't care what load anyone else shoots as long as they effectively kill the game but with the current interest in the high velocity loads I'm finding the traditional loads in the 1200 to 1300 fps range more & more difficult to find.
You might want to try RST's pheasant load: 1 1/4 oz 5 or 6, 1200 fps. Price listed on my sheet is $115/flat. Even with shipping, that'd be less than buying 10 boxes of the premium lead pheasant loads . . . at 14-1500 fps.
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Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 602 Likes: 39
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 602 Likes: 39 |
When Burrard spoke of velocity he was generally using the standard "Observed Velocity" which was the average over 20 yds. The standard load of his day of 3 drams & 1 1/16oz shot had an observed velocity of 1050 fps. Converted to MV it was about 1300 fps. That 1150 velocity would have been over 1400 fps & likely pushing that 1450 fps. This was normally stated for #6 shot. If different sizes of shot were given the same MV, they would have different OV, larger shot being higher than smaller shot. I think 2 Piper is correct here. Reading some of Burrard's writing takes a little time to digest & Burrard doesn't state the method of obtaining the 1150 velocity limit but taking the entire chapter into context "observed velocity" looks to be correct & Table XII (1150 fps observed velocity) does list #5 shot muzzle velocity @ 1450 fps & #6 @ 1475 Still, that makes the current loads in discussion that are listed @ 1450 fps by CIP methods (measured @ 2.5 meters) likely 1500 fps or more @ the muzzle. I'm finding it difficult to determine what is normal or standard velocity is when comparing loads using multiple methods of stating velocity but I always considered 12 ga. game loads 1 1/16 to 1 1/4 of around 1250 fps (+ or - 50fps) using SAMMI or CIP velocity standards of measurement as standard velocity loads. BTW, using Burrard's data & #5 shot the downrange velocity difference @ 50 yds between loads starting @ 1251 fps & 1450 fps (muzzle velocity) is 27 fps or a 4.8% advantage for the faster load & assuming a 6 3/4 lb. gun the recoil increase is 5.5 ft lbs. or 34.5%
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Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 602 Likes: 39
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 602 Likes: 39 |
[/quote]
You might want to try RST's pheasant load: 1 1/4 oz 5 or 6, 1200 fps. Price listed on my sheet is $115/flat. Even with shipping, that'd be less than buying 10 boxes of the premium lead pheasant loads . . . at 14-1500 fps. [/quote]
Larry,
I like & use RST shells but I've never shot any of their 1200 fps 1 1/4 oz pheasant loads. I would certainly prefer those to a 1 1/16 oz or heavier load @ 1450 fps. In a 6 3/4 lb gun the calculated recoil is 20.2 ft lbs compared to 21.3 ft lbs for the faster 1 1/16 ox load & I would much prefer the increase in pattern density to the extra velocity for approximately the same amount of recoil.
I used to shoot the old Winchester 3 1/4 DE 1 1/4 oz Pigeon load with #5 shot for pheasant. I think those were listed as 1220 fps if I remember correctly & they worked well but I wasn't concerned about pressure in the guns I was using at that time.
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,390 Likes: 107
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,390 Likes: 107 |
Brittany Man, those old pigeon loads were indeed 1220 fps. I used to be able to get them in 6 shot from Winchester, but they eventually dropped anything larger than 7 1/2. These days, outside of the RST's, try to find ANY quality 1 1/8 oz or 1 1/4 oz load from a US manufacturer at a velocity under 1300 fps.
Re observed velocity vs velocity as we measure it: I have a little note in my Eley Shooters Diary, which records all sort of interesting information about shotshells: comparative US/British/other European shot sizes, etc. I didn't record the source of the note I made, but here's what I wrote:
Standard British game loads, observed velocity 1070 fps = American velocity 1175 fps. High velocity observed 1120 fps =American 1235 fps. So looks like adding about 100 to an observed velocity figure is going to get us to our 3 foot velocity. Add another 100 fps or so to that and you have the true muzzle velocity.
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