June
S M T W T F S
1
2 3 4 5 6 7 8
9 10 11 12 13 14 15
16 17 18 19 20 21 22
23 24 25 26 27 28 29
30
Who's Online Now
3 members (smlekid, Ted Schefelbein, 1 invisible), 293 guests, and 4 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums10
Topics38,611
Posts546,965
Members14,427
Most Online1,344
Apr 29th, 2024
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 4 of 9 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 9,350
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 9,350
Nearly all my shooting is over decoys. I wouldn't cry if all I had was cylinder.

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,435
Likes: 1
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,435
Likes: 1
Since all my guns are vintage British or American and now, thanks to being a bit selective, pretty nice examples of the maker's art, I shoot them all the way I got them. Lots of the Brits are cylinder and full. The American guns are choked pretty tight in general. I use RST's or Polywad in all of them. I've used the spreaders in the tighter ones and haven't really noticed a difference in the number of birds in the bag. I'm not a serious clay shooter and I only shoot them for fun and tune-ups. If I kept score and a log maybe I could tell the difference but I just love to shoot them all.

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 12,743
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 12,743
Has anyone besides me noticed that when most writers extol the virtues of a Cylinder bore gun the comparison is virtually always made to a gun having Full choke. True in most upland situations a Cylinder gun is more useful than a full choked one.
In My opinion though a 1/4 choked one is much more useful & versatile than either. A 1/4 choke in a 12ga will run to about .010" constriction which is what many of the old US makers stamped as Imp Cylinder. A true IC is just what it says & only goes to about .005/.006".


Miller/TN
I Didn't Say Everything I Said, Yogi Berra
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 969
Likes: 38
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 969
Likes: 38
True scientific pattern analysis was carried out and results published by General Journee in the early 1900s, Ed Lowry in the 1970s and now we have Dr Andrew Jones.

Jones has the advantage of instant pattern analysis via scanning and bit mapping software, ie he does not have to count pellets, and that has allowed him to analyse 2500 patterns for his book on shotgun performance.

The conclusion from the above is that choke works, plastic wads are no substitutes for choke, and that optimum pattern density for succesful hits needs some choke.

Anyone wanting to know choke and how it works, I think will benefit from Dr Jones book.

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,398
Likes: 108
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,398
Likes: 108
Originally Posted By: Shotgunjones
McIntosh got paid by the word.


Not likely. But then there's a fair amount of ignorance going around when it comes to outdoor writers.

McIntosh was writing for a broad audience, not a collection of George Digweeds--although I don't believe I've seen George raise his hand in this particular group. Hey George . . . are you out there? smile

What most guys who shoot well fail to recognize is that hunters AS A GROUP are pretty poor shots. Tom Roster has run thousands of them through his CONSEP program, and what he's found is that two thirds of them can't hit half the crossing clays thrown at 20 yards. Those guys obviously need all the help they can get to hit CLOSE targets, let alone long ones. Cylinder will almost certainly kill birds farther away than shooters with capabilities at that level can hit them regularly. To harken back to my military days, the maximum effective range of the gun and load often exceeds that of the shooter.

Grouse and woodcock hunters frequently take close shots. Steve Smith has written that his average first shot at woodcock comes at slightly over 13 yards; at grouse, about 22 yards. Nick Sisley likewise touts cylinder for both woodcock and grouse. He writes about a season during which he shot 78% on grouse (33 birds bagged) with a Franchi 20 gauge autoloader with the barrel cut back: no choke. Average shot distance: 23 yards. All of that sounds about right from my own experience with grouse and woodcock. And when you're talking shots inside 15 yards--note Smith's average range on woodcock--it's not so much about an open choke helping you to hit the birds as it is about putting them in the bag in condition fit for the table.

Cylinder isn't the only answer, but it's a very good answer for a lot of upland hunting, and a lot of upland hunters. I'm convinced more upland hunters are overchoked than underchoked.

And for the original poster, since I know he's a pheasant hunter: I've never gone quite as open as cyl in a pheasant gun, but I find that .005 in the right barrel of a 12 works just fine over good dogs. If you're doing the big group thing in South Dakota, you probably need more. But a hunter or two and a good dog or two, in good pheasant country . . . you don't need much choke for most first shots at roosters. And I've observed that that's true in my home state of Iowa, even with very depressed bird numbers. Last hunt of the season this year, two of us moved 6 roosters. Two were at maybe Stinger missile range. The other 4: All easily inside 25 yards. That was in early January, temperature around 20, strong wind--when you might expect surviving roosters to be pretty jumpy. Not what we found. Nor what I've found on other hunts after Iowa's now much scarcer birds the last few seasons. Fewer shots, but not necessarily longer ones.

As for Dr. Jones, his theory on the number of single pellet breaks we get at skeet leads me to believe he needs to spend less time at the computer and more time on a skeet field, picking up unbroken targets with a hole or two in them. Straights at skeet would be pretty rare if they involved many single pellet breaks, since we know that it's not at all unusual for a single pellet hit to result in a miss.

Last edited by L. Brown; 03/25/14 08:10 AM.
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 460
Likes: 12
Sidelock
Offline
Sidelock

Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 460
Likes: 12
A point I would consider of note is that it has long been known that a small degree of choke (e.g. the UK improved cylinder) gives a much more consistent pattern than true cylinder (as well as a slightly denser pattern) and is also thought to be more consistent across different cartridges.

I am a rather average shot (as said above, many game shots such as myself are not very good by overall standards!) and I find that improved cylinder or quarter choke in the right barrel and quarter or half in the left barrel (which is a pretty common combination in a UK sporting gun) suits me just fine.

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 709
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 709
On the subject of choke I've acquired a gun with a full/mod configuration. I want to open the bottom mod to either cyl imp or skeet (10 or 5) Woodcock is what I'm thinking of but have never hunted them, pheasant for sure and i know Cyl imp or full works for them. Advice from woodcock hunters would be appreciated.

Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 389
Likes: 4
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 389
Likes: 4
Originally Posted By: JohnfromUK
A point I would consider of note is that it has long been known that a small degree of choke (e.g. the UK improved cylinder) gives a much more consistent pattern than true cylinder (as well as a slightly denser pattern) and is also thought to be more consistent across different cartridges.

I am a rather average shot (as said above, many game shots such as myself are not very good by overall standards!) and I find that improved cylinder or quarter choke in the right barrel and quarter or half in the left barrel (which is a pretty common combination in a UK sporting gun) suits me just fine.


Very good point. Even the smallest amount of choke will generally improve the pattern, even if it doesn't necessarily make it tighter. Even a few .001" of choke will give resistance to the wad as it exits the bore and help it separate from the shot column, and reduce any negative effects the wad might have on the pattern.


“I left long before daylight, alone but not lonely.”~Gordon Macquarrie
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,793
Likes: 769
Sidelock
**
Online Content
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,793
Likes: 769
I find it interesting that we are having a conversation about cylinder choke, and no one has thus far mentioned that few are the shtoguns that have a true .729 bore, something particularly true off the continent, were a tighter bore was favored for many years.
A 12 gauge shotgun with a .719 bore, and a .719 choke, or no choke in the end, is going to pattern differently than a shotgun with a .729 bore and no choke. Even though the average bloke would call either gun "cylinder" choked, or, more correctly, no choke.

Best,
Ted

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,815
Likes: 4
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,815
Likes: 4
Of course shooting Clays and Bird killing are different. However, I use a .012 in both bbls of my O/U for Clays. I was consistently breaking Clays last weekend at a Sporting Clays event with 1 oz 7 1/2 shot,,012 chokes at 45-60 yds.

Page 4 of 9 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9

Link Copied to Clipboard

doublegunshop.com home | Welcome | Sponsors & Advertisers | DoubleGun Rack | Doublegun Book Rack

Order or request info | Other Useful Information

Updated every minute of everyday!


Copyright (c) 1993 - 2024 doublegunshop.com. All rights reserved. doublegunshop.com - Bloomfield, NY 14469. USA These materials are provided by doublegunshop.com as a service to its customers and may be used for informational purposes only. doublegunshop.com assumes no responsibility for errors or omissions in these materials. THESE MATERIALS ARE PROVIDED "AS IS" WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EITHER EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANT-ABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, OR NON-INFRINGEMENT. doublegunshop.com further does not warrant the accuracy or completeness of the information, text, graphics, links or other items contained within these materials. doublegunshop.com shall not be liable for any special, indirect, incidental, or consequential damages, including without limitation, lost revenues or lost profits, which may result from the use of these materials. doublegunshop.com may make changes to these materials, or to the products described therein, at any time without notice. doublegunshop.com makes no commitment to update the information contained herein. This is a public un-moderated forum participate at your own risk.

Note: The posting of Copyrighted material on this forum is prohibited without prior written consent of the Copyright holder. For specifics on Copyright Law and restrictions refer to: http://www.copyright.gov/laws/ - doublegunshop.com will not monitor nor will they be held liable for copyright violations presented on the BBS which is an open and un-moderated public forum.

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
(Release build 20201027)
Responsive Width:

PHP: 7.0.33-0+deb9u11+hw1 Page Time: 0.089s Queries: 35 (0.066s) Memory: 0.8633 MB (Peak: 1.9001 MB) Data Comp: Off Server Time: 2024-06-16 00:15:45 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS