doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Stock dimensions on old American shotguns.

Doubles seem to be routinely longer, but most of the brand new, current production autos and pumps I've seen recently have very short stocks--many less than 14". I had a brand new browning pump a few years ago with a factory 13 7/8" pull...go figure.

Most double guns above the basic field grades were available with stock dimentions to order. My 1905 Philadelphia Arms Co. Pigeon Gun has a 14 7/16 inch length-of-pull and 2 3/8 inch drop at heel. I have five Fox doubles that left the factory with less then 2 3/8 inch drop-at-heel. Remington even offered a choice of dimentions on their lowest K-Grade hammerless double -- 14, 14 1/4 or 14 1/2 inch LoP and drops from 2 to 3 1/2 in 1/8 inch incremnents. So, people could get what they wanted and obviously many wanted that much drop. I have a photo copy of an early article by Cedric Fox extolling the virtues of a 4 1/2 inch drop at heel!!! A friend has an A.H. Fox 20-gauge so stocked!! Go figure!!

I don't think trap guns or other special order guns are representative of the "many old shotguns" Pete asked about.
I was just perusing an old DGJ article on a Remington SxS trap gun made in 1899 that had dimensions of 1 3/8 x 2 3/8....darned near perfect for me to shoot clays with today.

I think the generalization of a "lot of drop" has always been true of "off the shelf" , run of the mill, garden variety American field guns. It did come up over the last century from a lot of 1 5/8, 1 3/4 noses to more 1 1/2's, but I think the general public would benefit more from 1 7/16. While I like a field gun with 1/16 - 1/8" more drop from nose to heel than I do with my target guns, to this day I can't shoulder a Remington game gun and see anything but the back of the receiver.

Since I've a pretty average face for a 55 yr old guy (well, very handsome, but only average fullness) and 90% of the people who shoulder my custom-stocked guns say " I could shoot this," it puzzles me as much as it does Pete why the factory norm was, and still is, so "low."

I have heard this story a few times. I have never believed it. The have also read that the upright head, away from the stock, was historically to protect from flint locks and early percussion caps and the "flash in the pan" and that makes some sense. Traditions die hard and the dimensions from that era could have carried over.
As well, Americans have usually shot walked up game. Rising targets with the gun coming up to the shoulder as the eyes watched the target. I think the early American upland and wildfowler shot these guns with their faces off the stocks or just touching them. And, with the sharp drop to the heal at 3" the guns would have kicked up sharply. Face off the stock might be a defense mechanism. (If so, it is sort of funny that the cause of the problem created the method of shooting.) They would shoulder the gun and look down the rib without the face stuck to the stock.
My understanding is that the English game guns, with the much highter combs, were because those guns were used on driven game coming in from in front and high. The shooter was able to shoulder the gun well in anticipation of the shot.
Anyway, my .02 which may be about what it is worth.
Jake

A few more neat pics:

Here's a very interesting Peters die cut showing a man in a shooting position but without the shotgun-clearly head down and neck extended.


And another Western bird shooter

John Brindle's book Shotguns & Shooting chapter 2 onwards spends a lot of time discussing this.
Style will develop subject to your physique and initial instruction.

Hey folks, my 2 cents worth is that I had an ithaca Lewis model in 10 gauge that fit reasonably well-the pull was 13 7/8 & don't remember the drop but was reasonable for my stature.The odd thing was that if you sat your target on the rib the hit was very low as in 3 1/2 to 4 feet at 35 yards,however if you blacked out the target completely it did the job quite nicely-incoming, outgoing,or pass shooting made little difference.I ended up giving it to a pal that shoots skeet a lot and he loves it,he almost can't miss with it.Might be something to that thing about blacking out your targets-it sure works for him.

Imagine what he could do on a skeet field with an 8 gauge.

Maybe it's just "the luck of the draw", but I have had and seen more Ithaca double field grade guns with "modern" (as in straight and long) dimensions than any other make - even some built in the very early 1900's. Any explanation for that?

Maybe I missed something here, but it seems the Brit and American stocks end up putting the shooter's eye in about the same place when shooting. The Brit guns use cast off or on to get the eye in line with the bores, while the American guns use stock drop for the same thing. As to "how we were taught", most of us weren't taught at all. We just went to the field when we were old enough, and found out what worked so that we might hit a bird fairly consistently.