doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com W. Richards Double Barrel Shotgun - Help!

Picked up this puppy (think it is a 12 Gauge) and trying to understand it markings and history. It will be nothing but a wall hanger. I can't explain it - but I really love its looks and feel. And yes - I know this puppy is probably fake - but, it is still old! Anyway - any help would be great!

I have included some pictures - if you can help ID the markings - that would be wonderful.

The rectangle on the barrel says (I think): Laminated Steel

Thanks!

It's Belgian, per the top mark in your 4th photo. Lots of cheap Belgian guns imported in the late 19th century, many of them stamped with a name that sounded like a famous gunmaker. W. Richards does require a closer look, because in addition to the famous Westley Richards, there was also a W. Richards who made guns in Birmingham. But the proofmark tells the tale on this one.

Thanks a bunch L. Brown. So I now know it was made in Belgian. I guess the "STAR over N" is the maker's mark or could that be considered fake as well? I guess the "estimated" age is gone forever.

Anyway - thank you so much for your help.

Yes, the barrels are marked Laminated Steel like this, but are Twist



Remove the forend and post images of every mark on the barrel flats and bottom of the barrel and we might be able to date the gun. The star over N is a inspector's stamp, but does not reliably date the gun.

Courtesy of Researcher
The Sept. 26 1889 issue of Forest and Stream reported a test of H & D Folsom's cheapest doubles and observed... �W. Richards� that nonentity in the gun trade, was stamped on the plate, but they were really only those cheap bits of ordnance which come through our custom houses, pay a duty of 40 per cent., and yet may be placed on the counters of the gun shop at $5 a piece. Forest and Stream has already in past times expressed its opinion about these pestiferous products of the penurious population clustered on Belgian soil.

If 'Belgium' is not found anywhere, if might date to pre-1891

�Synopsis of decisions of the Treasury Department and Board of U.S. General Appraisers on the construction of tariff, immigration, and other laws, for year ending 1891� http://books.google.com/books?id=L_xDAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA1207&dq

It has been the custom of manufacturers to stamp fictitious names of individuals and other trade words, such as "Richards," "Western," "U.S. Armes Co.," etc., upon the lock plates or on the ribs connecting double-barrel guns imported at your port from Belgium; that in a number of recent importations of guns from Belgium there is a conspicuous absence of any words to indicate the country of origin, but on the contrary words have been found which represent to consumers that the guns are either of English or American manufacture, thus nullifying the object and intent of section 6 above referred to, and under these circumstances you request further instructions from the Department as to the marking of guns imported not only by Boker & Co., but by all others, whether in store or en route.
As it appears that it is practicable to stamp the name of the country of origin on the guns, you are hereby authorized, under and in pursuance of Department's decision of March 18. 1891 (Synopsis 10832) to deliver the guns covered by this and subsequent importations only upon such stamping, the language of said decision being that "where articles of foreign manufacture required to be marked under the provisions above referred to were ordinarily stamped at the time of the passage of said act, the name of the country of origin should be stamped thereon."

I think you'd be very close dating the gun in the 1890's.

Bingo Drew Hause - that is exactly what it looks like.


I am new at this but if I can figure out how to remove the "forend" without destroying it - I will take (and post) some pictures.


Dang - wasn't even close when I said "Makers Mark!"

Thanks again for all your help.

Thanks!

Here's a quick method to clean up the barrels, as they look like twist. If they're fluid steel disregard. This method brings out the contrast of a pattern welded barrel, not restoration by any means, but a quick and dirty clean up suitable for wall hangers. It will have little effect in areas where the bluing has worn off, such as above the fore end where the hand usually gripped it.

First, go over the barrels with a rag soaked in Lacquer Thinner. This is to remove the old varnish. Then, go over them LIGHTLY with 0000 steel wool and bore cleaner. This is meant to remove surface rust and old remaining finish. Do NOT rub hard enough to "silver" the metal. Next, degrease with acetone and let dry. Now comes a mild etch. on a hidden area under the fore arm, rub a small area with white vinegar (or a mild boric acid solution) and a clean soft rag to see if the barrel contrast comes out. This only takes around 30 seconds or so. Have a rag soaked in a baking soda solution ready to wipe on to stop the etch. If the bluing is still present, the pattern will come out, if not, stop at this step. If successful, etch the whole barrels, quickly, using a well soaked vinegar rag. It's important to apply the vinegar quickly over the whole barrel, so the etch is even. Rub the whole barrels for around 30 seconds or so, then switch to the baking soda rag. Clean the barrels with water and dry with a heat gun/hair dryer. Repeat the etch process if desired, but one is usually all is needed. When finished, you can either oil the barrels, relacquer with neutral base Watco Danish Oil, or paste wax them. (six coats of NuFinish wax is what I use if the gun will be outside in the sun) This is a basic "clean up" for pattern welded barrels that works well for me, I just did it to a Baker Batavia Leader this weekend, it really brought out the barrel pattern.
Ken

Thanks - will let ya know how it goes.

'W. Richards" was one of the names J.P. Clabrough used for his inexpensive guns.

Understood but since my puppy had a Belgian mark - that would eliminate Clabrough since he seems to have moved back to England when he really got rolling?

Thanks for the information Steve.

If my memory serves me, the Belgian "W Richards" were made by Henri Pieper. I have found at least one source relating them to F Dumoulin & Co, but I haven't been able to validate it. They were Folsom imports..

A little "W Richards" name use info. It's mostly citing Greener's explanations.
http://firearmshistory.blogspot.com/2012/06/spurious-guns-1.html

Here's an example of a "W Richards" with Birmingham proofs. It's clearly a little different quality than the Belgian guns. I've also read that some were made in Belgium, yet sent over and proofed in England. Kind'a like when all copy machines were called a "Xerox" after the best..

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=410278521

Looks like hanging on the wall might be the best thing for that one, Ken. Quite a bit of daylight between the barrels and the standing breech.

Larry,

I totally agree. It possibly could be "Spruced Up" to make it a nice, vintage decor item, it's not of high enough quality to put any real money into. It's a good candidate to make a lamp out of, where you see the gun slightly broken, and a rod run up through a barrel with the socket and shade mounted above the muzzle. The rod extends down to the base, and the butt stock heel is attached to the base as well. It's easier to just hang it on the wall as-is...
Ken

Just found some more markings...

'NM' could be Max Neumann, the gun maker.
The faint 'AD' may be 'ADH', Arthur-Delvaux-Heuse de Fraipont, who would be the barrel maker.
The Banc D'Epreuves de Liege 'ELG in an oval' was crowned after 1893.

Wow - thanks!

Strongly doubt that, Steve.

Odds on it is a farmer grade gun - intended for farm tool use. I've never seen a Belgian with the "W. Richards" name of higher quality. No offense intended, VPN, but that is my experience. Brit W. Richards guns are another story all together.

DDA

With the addition of Max Neumann, that brings the possible number of Belgian manufacturers to three. I'd like to know if the British guns were imported pre McKinley Tariff, with Folsom switching over to less expensive Belgian guns afterward.

It appears Folsom was cost controlling due to the low price point of the gun, and probably always went with the lowest bidder..

I never had any intentions of shooting it - I just liked it looks and always planned on hanging it on the wall in my den. I really do appreciate everyone's comments - knowing the history is pretty neat...

Guns like this were sourced to be shipped to the colonies in great numbers and were generally referred to as "trade guns ". Richards being in Liverpool a large port would have been involved in this trade , guns for export to African ,India as well as supplied to ships etc. would have borne no resemblance to the guns made for the home market .Birmingham makers were also involved in this and some of the guns produced including percussion guns that were made well into the 20th century were hardly fit to prop open a barn door .

As I recall, even Greener himself admitted to producing this type of gun, very low quality and strictly for export. Business is business, then as now, it's better to make some profit than none at all.

Did a lot of searches and can't tie "NM" to Max Neumann. Found a lot of "NM" postings (on barrels) but they relate to barrel upgrades and National Match Barrel standards which I think came afterwards - very very confusing...

Max was one of the Neumann brothers
http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20no/a%20neumann%20freres%20gb.htm

Fran�ois Dumoulin, Neumann Brothers, and Janssen formed Syndicat des Pieces Interchangables in 1898

And we're only guessing here

Thanks again Drew. I am a little disappointed though - really thought the Shotgun was built in the 1890's or so. However, based on the two Belgian Proofmarks (* over M and * over N) - the earliest would be 1923.

Funny thing is the *'s are over N and M - sound familiar?

c. 1890 is correct. Inspector's marks cannot be used to reliably date a Belgian gun and the post-1898 marks are absent.

OUTSTANDING - Life is good once again. I wondered why the earliest date was 1923 - thanks Drew.

Just found this: Due to a fire in 1922 all the archives of Belgian Inspectors were lost. So, all punches applied before 1922 can't be traced back to the applying inspector or the date the arm was punched...

I would like to thank everyone for their help in identifying stuff about my shotgun - I created a website that reflects all my findings on: W. Richards Double Barrel Shotgun Findings

Thanks again!

Thanks Steve!

VPNAV,
For almost 50years whilst attending Ontario gun shows I must have been asked 50 + times to evaluate guns marked W.Richards. Frankly your gun is perhaps the most sadly neglected and abused example that I have ever seen! In some cases advising owners that their Gun was not by; Westley Richards or W.Richards of Liverpool and that their gun was of nominal value being of Belgian origin,and was likely sold through H&D Folsom of New York, N.Y.
In some instances the net result was; the owners left my table in a huff,implying that I was under valuing their gun for personal gain. To which my standard reply was;" Sorry you feel that way but I would not accept your gun as a gift."
Enjoy your gun, hang it safely on the wall.

http://www.wrichardsguns.co.uk/history.html


A link to some of the history of the English firm.

Thanks for the information Roy. Yea, my puppy has seen better days but that makes me love it even more - is shows character! As far as owner's leaving your table after hearing your evaluation - shame on them. I appreciate any and all opinions related to my puppy. It is hanging up in my den and looking strong! Thanks again for your comments.

Thanks!