doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Really need help with ID of rifle

Hello Gentleman, I found this forum while trying hard to id a rifle that my grandfather owns, the only thing he knows about it is that it was "thought to be european". Its a 38-55 double rifle with 2 triggers, integral scope mounts, ammo storage in the buttstock, very nice metal work, exposed hammers and it breaks by moving the forend. I have collected guns for 20 years (since high school)and sold them in a retail store while in college and have never seen anything like it. I've asked at SHOT show, I've asked at SCI, i've come up empty. There are no "markings/stamps" that i can find anywhere on the rifle except "38-55 Win", hence the mystery. I really hope that one of ya'll can help. Here are some pics

ugadeer,
Can you take the barrels off and post photos of all markings under the barrels, and on the action flats.Of special interest would be a clear photo of the caliber marking(38-55).While some rifles of this type may have been made in 38-55, for export to the US; I suspect this gun is a WW2 "bring back",chambered for one of the 9.3mm cartridges and mis IDed as 38-55.After the war, a fair number of 9.3x72R rifles were used with 38-55 ammo.This mistake was due to lack of proper ammo,and lack of information regarding how to ID the actual caliber of war trophy firearms, brought back by GIs.If you haven't had the barrels off, you do so in the following manner.Remove the "key" in the forearm ( some have a detent to prevent complete removal and possible loss,just move the key to the detent); open the action by swinging the lever under the forearm; and slide the barrels back, up,and out of the gun.The forearm will remain attached to the action.This type gun is fairly often found,but usually with combination or double shotgun barrels.Also it would be helpful if you could make a chambercast,and "slug"the barrel.My opinion that it is a "bring back" was partially formed because of the clawmount bases on the rifle.Installation of these bases, may have covered up or removed the name of a dealer or maker.I'm pretty sure that we can help, but may not be able to positively ID the maker.
Mike

Mike,

Thanks so much for the help, I do not have the gun in my possession right now as its in my dad's safe 500 miles away and I took the pics over Christmas while visiting, I'll try to have him bring it to me in a few weeks when they come up. I know that my dad and I both shot it about 20 years ago, put about 16 or so rounds through it and it shot very well. I will certainly update you if i get it apart. I also work frequently in W. GA so I may be able to show it to ya in person.

Thanks, matt

Matt,
I lived in Columbus almost 20 years and my doctors are still there.As old and decrepit as I am,I have to visit columbus fairly often.That may be convenient, or maybe some where around West Point or Lagrange.I would like to see it.PM me if you think it will work out.
Mike

I wouldn't be surprised if this turns out to be a Ferlach piece.

With kind regards,
Jani

I was finally able to get over to my dad's house and get the bbls off, there is no marking that i can see of caliber but here are the pics of the markings that are on each bbl (they are the same, also, the R and U are on the action as well under bbl)

Hello
Early German gun
Sent back for reproof
http://www.shotguns.se/html/germany_1890-1945.html

According to the German Proof Law: 118.35 gauge = bore diameter of 8.64 mm. Bore diameter = measured from land-to-land, no groove-to-groove.

The gun sure deserves a chamber cast to verify cartridge and caliber.


Mike

Speculation here:
But this gun could possibly have been taken by a GI from the piles of surrendered guns the Germans were forced to give up at wars end. Oftentimes they are without the scope and mounts as I expect the owner decided not to include them when the gun was turned in. Can't say as I blame him. Perhaps some of the more knowledgeable rifle members who usually post in the rifle section will comment here.
As an aside: The rcommendation to get a chamber cast is a good one and any gunsmith can do this for a reasonable cost. If the rifle is in fact 38-55 that would certainly influence the value.
Jim

The "Bore Diameter" mark found on barrels of this era quite often do not reflect an "Exact" size. This gun when proofed would accept a plug gage having a size of 118.35 gauge (.340" but would not accept a plug gage of 108.49 gauge (.350"). This in metrics would translate to from 8.64mm to 8.89mm. Bores of this size are very commonly found o 9.3 mm chambered guns. My own later Drilling with a 9.3x72R chamber has a bore stamped 8.8mm (.3465")Most of these early 9.3 rifles had deep rifling or use with lead bullets, though mine is Nitro Proofed for use with a copper jacketed bullet.

The engraving seems to match perfectly with some ferlach rifles I've seen pictures of. Weren't they Austrian?