doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Lang underlever?

I was wanting to add an underlever to the "collection" and came across this. The rib is marked Josh Lang and Sons, 22 Cockspur Street, London and the lock plates are marked Josh Lang & Sons. I wondered about it being marked this way instead of Joseph Lang. I did manage to come across another on the web that was marked Joseph Lang & Sons on the rib and Josh Lang on the lock plates. The wood is in very nice condition with no cracks or repairs and the checkering on both stock and forearm is excellent. The horn tip is still in the forearm. I was surprised to see that the screws aren't buggered and neither are the escutcheons for the forearm wedge. Both locks are strong and work smoothly. The downside is while the bores don't really have deep pitting, they do exhibit that rough, grainy appearance pretty much the full length. They are very dirty though and I have them soaking right now. The damascus needs refinishing. In fact, they are pretty much ready to be refinished. Both tubes ring nice and clear the full length and the chambers have not been legthened. Were some guns made by Joseph Lang marked Josh Lang or what exactly do I have here?

I believe Josh may be a shortened version of Joseph, in the same way that Chas is a shortened version of Charles. Not that it answers your question, but folk may wish to know more about Joseph Lang. This from the IGC:

Joseph Lang was reportedly born in Scotland in 1795, but this is not correct. Joseph was born in 1797 in Bedhampton, near Portsmouth, Hampshire, where his father, Charles, was a farmer. A Charles Lang was recorded as a tailor in Bedhampton in the 1851 census, he was born in 1795 in Bedhampton and may well have been Joseph's elder brother. Joseph worked for Henry William Wilson at Wilson's Gun and Pistol Warehouse at 1 Vigo Lane, London. Reportedly, he worked for him from 1808, but this is unlikely as he would have been only 9 or 10 years old. It is more likely that he was apprenticed from 1812, when he was 14 years old, to William Henry or William Henry's father, William Wilson of Minories, or possibly to William Henry's brother, Alexander Wilson. He became manager of William Henry Wilson's gun dealing business at some time, probably in about 1820, when he would have been 21 years old. William Henry Wilson also traded in gold, silver and jewellery and, like many dealers at that time, was probably taking goods in part payment for guns. By 1823 William Henry Wilson appears to have wanted to retire, so Joseph bought some of Wilson's stock and started to trade as "Joseph Lang, Gun and Pistol Repository" at 7 Haymarket. In 1825 Joseph reportedly bought the remainder of Wilson's stock, including some silver plate, but James Collins claimed to be the successor to William Henry Wilson; and it may be that Joseph took over some of the stock but James Collins took over the premises and continued as a gun repository.

Joseph advertised in the Times newspaper "From Wilson's old established Gun and Pistol Warehouse, Vigo Lane (retired from the business) - J Lang, begs to inform the Nobility, Gentry and his Sporting Friends that he has opened an establishment for the Sale of Warranted Town-made Guns by Manton, Purdey, Forsyth, Smith, Moore, Nock, and all the London makers around half their cost, and to be exchanged within twelve months if not approved. An excellent assortment of duelling, holster, and pocket pistols; a great variety of appararus of every description; powder, shot, copper caps, etc. An assortment of plate and superior Sheffield plated goods on the very lowest terms for ready money. 7 Haymarket, adjoining the Little Theatre." The Little Theatre is now the Theatre Royal, Haymarket. In May 1826 Joseph bought the bankrupt stock of Joseph Manton, and on 8 June he advertised in the Morning Chronical: "Manton's Guns, at reduced prices - The Nobility, and Sporting Gentlemen are respectfully informed, that owing to particular circumstances, the entire STOCK of highly finished DETONATING and FLINT LOCK GUNS of JOSEPH MANTON, in cases complete, are now removed for SALE to LANG'S Town-made Gun and Pistol Repository, No 7. Haymarket, where an extensive Assortment of Double and Single Guns, Rifles, Duelling and other Pistols, by all the first-rate London Makers, are always on sale (no Birmingham or Country Guns being admitted); also a large Stock of Joseph Manton's Copper Primers, Copper Caps, improved safety Powder Flasks, and Apparatus of every description." In September 1826 he again advertised the fact that he was the only gun dealer in London who did not deal in "Birmingham and other Country-made guns". At this time he bought from James Purdey, under a sale or return agreement, second-hand guns. Purdey and some other London makers did not want to sell second-hand guns, they wanted to be seen as gun makers rather than dealers, and as makers they had more control over profitability.

On 15 January 1827 he advertised "SHOOTING GALLERY, BILLIARDS &c; J Lang of 7 Haymarket, has just opened an Elegant Gallery 21 Yards in length, for PISTOLS and other SHOOTING, and also Two Elegant Billiard Rooms, with very Superior Tables by Thurston and Erwood, the whole of which is fitted out in superior style for the accommodation of Noblemen and Gentlemen adjoining his Repository for New and Second Hand Guns and Pistols, by the Mantons, Purdey, & all the first rate London Makers. Warranted. 7 Haymarket adjoining the theatre". This mention of new guns may indicate the start of him making guns or having them made for him, but he did not describe himself as a gun manufacturer until 1840. The firm of Joseph Lang is not usually associated with live pigeon shooting in the same way as Henry Holland and James Purdey, but undoubtedly this was where Joseph found much of his business, and it was probably how he came close to the Purdey family. Joseph sold Joshua Jenour's wire mesh cartridges (Joshua Jenour's patent No.5570 of 28 November 1827) for use at various London live pigeon shooting grounds such as the famous Hornsey Wood House Club, the Red House Tavern at Battersea, and the Old Hats Club on the Uxbridge Road. On 12 January 1828 Joseph married Eliza, James Purdey's 17 year old second daughter. James Purdey and his daughter, Elizabeth, were witnesses at the wedding. In early 1829 Eliza had a son named Joseph who was apprenticed to James Purdey on 28 June 1845. Interestingly, this Joseph was not recorded in any of the following censuses or anywhere else, and it has been suggested that he emigrated to Australia.

By 1828 Joseph Lang's purchases from Purdey's had declined. In that year Joseph Lang described himself as a gun maker so it may have been that he was no longer operating solely as a repository but was having new guns made for him by a number of London gun makers and outworkers. Between 1830 and 1834 Purdey supplied Joseph with 84 shotguns, rifles and pistols (serial numbers between 1760 and 2560). It has been noted that Lang guns of about this date bore a striking resemblance to Purdey guns but whether these were all Purdey guns or not is not clear. Reportedly, in the period from February 1831 to August 1836, Purdey guns were engraved with animals and sporting scenes, as well as scrolls; Joseph Lang guns of the same period appear to have similar engraving which, if they were not Purdey guns, may be due to fashion or the use of the same outworkers. At this time T Hart and W Wood were employed by Joseph. They subsequently established their own partnership at 14 Princes Street, Leicester Square. In early 1831 Joseph and Eliza had a second son, Charles, and in 1834 a daughter, Eliza Maria (called Maryann). A third son, James, was born in 1835.

In June 1837 an advertisement in Ackermans New Sporting Magazine stated "J. LANG, GUNMAKERS, 7 HAYMARKET, begs to inform Sportsmen that he has, in addition, to his own guns, an extensive variety of SECOND-HAND GUNS by Purdey, Manton and all the first-rate London makers, at nearly half their original cost - a great variety of Archery of very superior Manufacture - also his new invented patent greyhound slips (patent not traced), now used at all the coursing clubs - Stick Guns with Folding Telescope Stocks, and an Extra Rifled Barrel - also Air Guns and Canes of very superior manufacture - improved Copper Caps, Primers and Apparatus of every description - 7 Haymarket."
Apart from his gun making business, Joseph Lang was famous for breeding lemon and white pointers (as was W R Pape in Newcastle) and developing and promoting field trials. According to William Arkwright, author of "The Pointer and his Predecessors", he was "as renowned for his pointers as for his guns and used to command top prices for both". In about 1838 Joseph's residence moved to 19 Tollington Park, Hornsey Road, Islington, this was nearer to the famous Hornsey Wood Tavern live pigeon shooting ground than the Haymarket, and it may be that he had kennels there.

In 1839 Thomas Alfred Lang was born, and in 1841 Edward Lang was born. In the 1841 census Joseph was recorded living in Tollington Park with Eliza, Maryann, James and Thomas Alfred. There is no mention of Charles either then or later, it may be that he died whilst still a boy. James, Tom A and Edward were almost certainly apprenticed to their father, James and Edward became gun makers in their own right, but the only description of Tom A was later in the 1861 census where he was described as the son of a gun maker. In 1851 at the Great Exhibition the firm exhibited four and six barrel revolvers, shotguns, a patent walking stick gun, and rifles. In May 1852 the firm moved to 22 Cockspur Street, Charing Cross (Pall Mall). At about this time the Lang family moved to 3 Horbury Terrace, Kensington.

In 1853 Joseph made his first breech-loader for a pin-fire cartridge (Houllier patent No. 1963/1846 pin-fire system), versions for center-fire cartridges followed. The introduction of the breech-loader met with some opposition on the grounds of safety, mis-fires, hitting power and, in the case of rifles, accuracy. In April 1858 The Field magazine organised a trial at Ashburnham Park, Chelsea, where muzzle-loading rifles competed against breech-loaders. The muzzle-loaders won the first three places but the difference was minimal and it was clear that the ease of re-loading was a huge advantage. There have been reports that it was James Lang who, after seeing the Lefaucheaux breech-loaders (see Samuel Johannes Pauly) at the 1851 Great Exhibition, was mainly responsible for the introduction of breech-loaders into this country. This does not seem to be an accurate reflection of what took place as in 1851 he was only 16 years old, only part trained, and his father was in complete control of the family and the business, James would have done exactly as Joseph instructed him. James was almost certainly an enthusiastic supporter of the new breech-loaders, and he had much to do with making them as he later became the workshop manager of the firm, but the credit obviously belongs to Joseph or, more accurately, to Edwin Hodges. In 1851 Edwin Hodges, an outworking action filer and gun maker, had visited the Great Exhibition, seen the Lefaucheux breech-loader, and designed an improved copy of it. This he showed to James and Joseph Lang. They were impressed and, when the design was perfected in 1853, the firm sold a number of them claiming that Joseph Lang was the first gun maker to introduce the breech-loader to Britain. As promoters of the first breech-loaders, which were very different to manufacture and use compared to muzzle-loaders, and therefore a huge novelty in a traditional business, Joseph Lang was joined in particular by John Blanch and Joseph and Edward Reilly.

On 13 June 1854 Eliza Lang died. The firm exhibited their guns at the 1855 Paris Exhibition. In the 1861 census Joseph Lang was recorded as a widower, living at the firm's address, 22 Cockspur Street, London, with his son, Tom A Lang. Tom appears to have been a shopman. The firm exhibited their guns at the 1862 International Exhibition in London and won a medal. On 26 August 1862 Joseph, then aged 65, married Hannah Stevens who was his 30 year old domestic servant. On 27 October 1862 they had a son, Arthur Joseph, and on 26 May 1865 a daughter, Mary Helen.

On 18 June 1867 Joseph took out a patent for a rotating bolt single bite snap action which had a transverse bolt pivoted on the left side of the action bar with a small lever on the right of the bar. When the lever was pulled back the bolt was withdrawn from the bite in the lump. The patent was used for converting breech loaders to muzzle loaders (No. 1785). It also covered a chamber piece and a nipple screwed in to replace the firing pin so that the gun could use powder and shot if required. In the same year, 1867, the firm exhibited their guns at the Paris Exhibition. At some time the firm was appointed gunmaker to His Imperial Highness the Grand Duke Michael of Russia (interestingly, they never received a Royal Appointment in Great Britain).

On 21 December 1868 Joseph Lang died, aged 71. It appears that Hannah and James inherited the business. This was run by James who promoted Edwin Hughes to workshop manager.

Tim

Holy cr@p - thanks for the info, trw999! Very informative.

Interesting action on that gun. Anyone know anything about it?

Thanks

OWD

Yes, thanks for the info. It is much appreciated.

Check the serial no and see if it matches Lang's

Isn't it just a Henry Jones under lever/screw grip Gun?, pretty common , n very stout,so I hear.I have a nice Greener Hammer pigeon with the Jones action..I really like the way you can feel that lever really grind down & lock those bbls right down n solid..though it is a little slow with all the movements to unlock n lock again, but I find it very mechanically satisfying ,looks lovely mate
franc

From what I can find it does match Lang's serial numbers. I think it is from around 1871.

Nah - I think it looks like a 1/2 Jones part Lefaucheux hybrid.

Here's a Jones:

http://www.hallowellco.com/jones.htm#Jones

Here's Lefaucheux:

http://www.hallowellco.com/lefaucheux.htm


OWD

Incredibly interesting material here. I own a wonderful W.H. Wilson marked double flint shotgun from the late flint period of very high quality. Any references to the company are appreciated.

owd,
Surely (don't call me shirley,lol)
the Lefaucheux has the locking lever up front with the lever pushed away from the shooter to lock up, under the forend..this one locks up with the Jones under lever ,pulled into the shooter, to lock, under the guard.
I wish there was a side shot of the lumps.
My Greener looks just like the second Jones pic,showing some of the interupted screw it uses to cam the bbls down, but wish I could see the other side of the bridge in the lump slot in the action flats...Am I wrong here?
cheers
franc